During the build up to the French Revolution,Louis XVI summoned around 20,000-30,000 soldiers to Paris and many of these troops were foreign mercenary regiments with most of the soldiers recruited either from Germany or Switzerland.While it is known that the native French soldiers were either unwilling to fight the mob or outright defected to them(like the gardes françaises),what would happen if he ordered the foreign soldiers to do the dirty work instead?
What if Louis XVI tried to disperse the Parisian mob with his mercenary regiments?
- Thread starter Avrorrange
- Start date
First you have to consider foreigh forces: there not a single german mercenary unit in France (this was mainly a Brisish habbit).
Foreign forces came from swiss. You had
Maison Militaire du Roi (elite force): Cent-Suisses: 121 Elite bodyguards, reliable
Maison Militaire du Roi (elite force): Régiment des Garde Suisse: 2200-2400 men, Elite Infantry Regiment, reliable
Line Infantry: 11 Régiments de Suisses (theorical manpower 11.000 men)
Another reliable military unit was the Régiment Royal Cavalerie Allemand (which was german in 1670 but French in 1789).
This regiment tried to disperse the mob on July the.. 12th. As a consequence the Gardes Françaises (elite, 4000 men) sided with the population. Five out of the six compagnies in the city joined them.
Thus I do not think that it wold have changed anything: the more you use them, the more French units side with the population. You have no more than 12.000 men and the French army is close to 300.000. Not a chance.
Foreign forces came from swiss. You had
Maison Militaire du Roi (elite force): Cent-Suisses: 121 Elite bodyguards, reliable
Maison Militaire du Roi (elite force): Régiment des Garde Suisse: 2200-2400 men, Elite Infantry Regiment, reliable
Line Infantry: 11 Régiments de Suisses (theorical manpower 11.000 men)
Another reliable military unit was the Régiment Royal Cavalerie Allemand (which was german in 1670 but French in 1789).
This regiment tried to disperse the mob on July the.. 12th. As a consequence the Gardes Françaises (elite, 4000 men) sided with the population. Five out of the six compagnies in the city joined them.
Thus I do not think that it wold have changed anything: the more you use them, the more French units side with the population. You have no more than 12.000 men and the French army is close to 300.000. Not a chance.
I'm talking more along sending away all the French units from Paris and deploying only the foreign troops in Paris to suppress the mob.I highly doubt the rest of the army would do anything if they aren't told to suppress the revolt themselves.A lot of army units seems to just want to remain neutral at the time.
I'm talking more along sending away all the French units from Paris
????? That's ASB. You need them to basically man fortresses, guard outposts and so on. Don't forget the the Gardes Françaises were in the King's guard. If a single unit was supposed to side with the king, it's this one... and it didn't.
Don't forget that you also have to take into account events:
- the king fell threatened and asked troops to surround Paris
- thus the population fell threatened by those troops and riots began
- thus some units tried to disperse the mob
- thus some French units sided with the population
- thus the population stormed Les Invalides (to get weapons)
- thus the population stormed La Bastille (to get powder and bullets)
Historically ALL Swiss regiements were around Paris and the single fact that they were there leaded to the revolution. Other French troops are not that reliable and the more Swiss shoot on French, the higher the probability that those units march on them.
Wrong, most sided with the people very fast.
????? That's ASB. You need them to basically man fortresses, guard outposts and so on. Don't forget the the Gardes Françaises were in the King's guard. If a single unit was supposed to side with the king, it's this one... and it didn't.
Don't forget that you also have to take into account events:
- the king fell threatened and asked troops to surround Paris
- thus the population fell threatened by those troops and riots began
- thus some units tried to disperse the mob
- thus some French units sided with the population
- thus the population stormed Les Invalides (to get weapons)
- thus the population stormed La Bastille (to get powder and bullets)
Historically ALL Swiss regiements were around Paris and the single fact that they were there leaded to the revolution. Other French troops are not that reliable and the more Swiss shoot on French, the higher the probability that those units march on them.
Wrong, most sided with the people very fast.
Only the French Guards seems to outright defect and there's a lot of reasons for it.The unit was poorly run by it's officers(more like it wasn't run at all by them) and the guardsmen were allowed to familiarise themselves with the local populace.If anything,this was the unit that has the most ties with the local populace and most likely to defect.
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I don't think its an outright failure, but I don't think it will succeed easily either, even in a coup de main. As fighting set in and intensified, I expect that it would spread to the provinces where the King still had some appeal, resulting in a civil war. How the civil war would end depends a lot on the vagaries of which areas get seized by which side and foreign intervention, if any. Royalist leadership (the king) doesn't seem to be very good, although if the King ordered in the Swiss guards and stuck with it, that shows much more decision than OTL.
No: there were many units on the Champ de Mars and their own officers warned on the 12th and 13th that they were NOT going to move against the population as their men were not going to obey.
Between who and who? At this time it's just a mob and some ideas. Don't forget that most military units (you can check records) were not going to go against the people and that most of the population was going to wait for the results of Les Etats Généraux. They elected delegates and the most common stance in the population is that the nobility was guilty and that their were giving bad recommendations to the king. They just want a new government.
Don't forget that at this time nobody want to remove the king, they just want to limit his powers. Republic came only after the escape do Varenne.
. How the civil war would end depends a lot on the vagaries of which areas get seized by which side and foreign intervention, if any. Royalist leadership (the king) doesn't seem to be very good, although if the King ordered in the Swiss guards and stuck with it, that shows much more decision than OTL.
I would say that would be political suicide. A big resentment reason against the good king was supposed influence by foreign powers, notably through his Austrian wife.
Now, imagine you have a king you suppose is a puppet of foreign powers. When you rabble a bit, he sends away the French troups and sends in foreign troups to quell the insurrection.
Yeah, his head is not gonna be in a basket but paraded on a pike, and quickly
Now, imagine you have a king you suppose is a puppet of foreign powers. When you rabble a bit, he sends away the French troups and sends in foreign troups to quell the insurrection.
Yeah, his head is not gonna be in a basket but paraded on a pike, and quickly
Not moving against the population is different to outright defection like the French Guards.
And who would be the ones to remove his head?If the King ordered a crackdown using the Swiss troops,chances are that there would be a massive purge against insurrectionist elements.If he followed this up by exiling or executing most of the revolutionary leaders,chances are that the revolution would probably be straggled in it's cradle.He might actually be able to shock the nobles into agreeing with taxation reforms.The only way I can see where it doesn't work is if it was a half hearted crackdown where only a couple of people were killed.If it was bloody enough,the people will probably fear the king.
If there is indeed the chance of an outbreak of a civil war,chances are that the rebels will be poorly organized,with most of the leaders purged by the Swiss troops.
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Except I'm not talking about a civil war with defined leaders here, but mob justice.
Imagine the scene, you got a few thousands angry parisians rabbling and rambling outside the gates of the palace. The Swiss guards, although heavily trained and armed, know they would bear little chance if the whole population of Paris got into a murderous frenzy, as would be common with mob mentality.
From somewhere, a shot is heard, someone falls. Someone yells murder and the whole crowd invades the palace, climbing on the gates, stealing weapons, with the support of whoever is still there from the actual French forces.
Oh wait, that actually happened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_August_(French_Revolution)
That was against only a few Swiss guards.It was one thousand or so Swiss guards against 20k,with some national guards mixed amongst that 20k.If there's at least ten thousand Swiss guards,the situation would have been drastically different.Actual native French soldiers except for units deemed loyal will also have been deployed away from Paris if such a thing was to be attempted.Except I'm not talking about a civil war with defined leaders here, but mob justice.
Imagine the scene, you got a few thousands angry parisians rabbling and rambling outside the gates of the palace. The Swiss guards, although heavily trained and armed, know they would bear little chance if the whole population of Paris got into a murderous frenzy, as would be common with mob mentality.
From somewhere, a shot is heard, someone falls. Someone yells murder and the whole crowd invades the palace, climbing on the gates, stealing weapons, with the support of whoever is still there from the actual French forces.
Oh wait, that actually happened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_August_(French_Revolution)
If there's enough Swiss guards and soldiers,and enough of the mob killed to let them know that mob justice doesn't work,the situation would be drastically different.
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Fair point. Still, from history, if you go too hard at repression, you usually get a huge popular backlash. For Vendémiaire (I wasn't aware of the episode, I have general knowledge of the revolution and am following the Revolutions podcast, which is still at 1793
), seems like it was a royalist bataillon which would have limited popular support, not like lashing out at a civilian crowd.Not saying it will happen, but there's a good chance of the city erupting if foreigners shoot civilians and then it wouldn't be just those guys against the mob but those guys against a lot of Paris
I am pretty sure that the mob in otl would have been the whole lot of Paris that's willing to rebel even if civilians were shot.Even when the monarchy lost all it's credibility after the flight to Varennes,the mob was only around 20k-30k at most.Ten thousand professional,well equipped soldiers with experienced officers are more than capable of handling that.Remember,most of the mob are poorly led,equipped and trained.There's around 4,000 French guards in there,true,but the French guards being mixed in the mob would have diluted their combat capabilities.Not to mention,they wouldn't be led by their officers.Fair point. Still, from history, if you go too hard at repression, you usually get a huge popular backlash. For Vendémiaire (I wasn't aware of the episode, I have general knowledge of the revolution and am following the Revolutions podcast, which is still at 1793
Not saying it will happen, but there's a good chance of the city erupting if foreigners shoot civilians and then it wouldn't be just those guys against the mob but those guys against a lot of Paris
Which is why it has to been bloody enough,as in kill thousands of them,not just a dozen or two like what the Imperial government did in Bloody Sunday.If you kill enough of them and make the people actually fear the government and make them think that they won't win in a confrontation with the government,they won't do it again.This should preferably be done in situations like the Storming of the Bastille,where the government can legitimately claim that they were just suppressing rebels that are attacking government property.That's where we differ
For me, shooting the crowd would trigger a lot of people who would have been on the fence otherwise, or even on the royalist side to switch side, not because they believe in Democracy and whatnot but because of the brutality (real or rumoured) of the backlash
When it comes to situations like this,you either don't try to suppress the revolt and try to win through negotiations or go all the way and do it as brutally as possible.Half-heated attempts at suppression will generally backfire.
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You don't seem to understand (maybe you don't read French): their officers said that they were not going to move against the population and their men wanted to JOIN the mob. Basically they wanted the same thing: more justice and a lower bread price.
Against which elements? You seem to think that it was an organized movement. It wasn't. There were no "leader". At that time there is no "revolution". You have a mob who wants bread, with people afraid of seeing so many regiments around the city.
That's plainly studid, it didn't work that way at that time in France. Don't forget the logic: the revolution happened BECAUSE the king ordered a crackdown on the 12th and suddenly discovered that his troops were not reliable any more. Look at some reports from Valenciennes and Strasbourg where the local regiments moved WITH the population.
You also have to understand that people were NOT against the king but for MORE justice. Ir's not the same thing.
Civil war? Rebels? There are no rebels, the whole population including the army wanted the same thing and expected a lot from les états généraux.
Save that it can not happen...
1/ French regiments were not reliable
2/ they were not going to leave the city
3/ the king does not know that they are not reliable (they understood too late)
4/ What do you think if French regiments are ordered to leave the area leaving only mercenaries around the city? People are going to react even faster. Now you just have 10.000 men (not 20k) against the largest city in the country with thousand of well trained elite troops (gardes françaises) for the mob. What can you expect?
5/ Outside Paris troops were not reliable any more.
Wrong... 40.000 rifles were distributed on the 13th. On the 12th 40 ouf of the 50 toll stations in the city were burned by close to 70k people...
In a city fight... Their own city? With a large population agreement? With the whole Maison du Roi taking their side (the Gardes Françaises were just one among many other units). Whishful thinking. Swiss are not stupid, they know that it would end in a bloodbath and that at the end on the wrong side of a pike.
Their own officers leaded the fight...
Historical evens do not support that. ALL suppressions backfire sooner or later. The worse the suppresion the worse the backfire...
A bloody and serious crackdown on the revolutionaries can work -or at least it did work 2 times in my country - Hungary. The latter was the 1956 revolution. It was beaten down by soviet forces and it was followed a bloody retribution from the government. The soviet installed leader -János Kádár was hated by nearly the whole populace. And a bit more than 10 years later the historicans think that he would have been able to win a fair election. Franz Josephs story was really similar to his. The trick is that after the strong crackdown you should show the populace that it can be better and that they can live with you.
I know it was a spontaneous movement to some extent,but there are people who gives the mob the wrong ideas,like Sieyes at this stage and folks like Danton,Marat and Robespierre etc latter on.I think in the event of a serious crackdown,members of the Third Estates of the Estates General would have to be exiled or executed.
Which is why the native units should be moved out.
And the King was able to send the army back to the border afterwards.I'm thinking more along the lines of sending the army back to the border but on the way to the border,order the Swiss regiments back to Paris secretly.
You won't fight the whole 70k mob at one time.Most of the time,the mob is smaller than that.You only need to make an example out of a portion of the mob and bloody enough.I'm also talking about the King trying to disperse the crowd before before they got gunpowder from the Bastille and weapons from the Les Invalides.
They are a regular army unit fighting against a mob as well as mutineers without their officers.As for the Maison du Roi,there were only three Maison du Roi units at the time,the Swiss Guard,the Bodyguard unit that's composed solely of aristocrats and the French Guards.The French Guards were the only ones that defected.
Pretty sure they did not.The officers didn't even bother to attend their duties to the regiment most of the time and the day to day function of the regiment was mostly left at the hands of the NCOs.This is why when the officers tried to rally the troops after the defection,no one gave a f#$k about their orders.No one even bothered to turn up.
My opinion is that if the King used the Swiss units to disperse the crowd in events like the Storming of the Bastille etc or before then,it will be the early modern era version of the Nika revolt or the Tienanmen Square massacre.
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