AHC: Large West or Central European Republic in medieval times

raharris1973 · May 10, 2015

I'm looking for something bigger than the Republic of Venice here.

Here are the specific conditions:

A) The Republic needs to be called a Republic, and be established no later than 1300 AD

B) It needs to last for over 200 years.

C) An elective monarchy is not enough, specifically, the titles of King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Duke, Duchess, Emperor, Empress, any variation on Caesar or Augustus are not permissible under the terms of the challenge.

D) There can be de facto political dynasties, but never a constitutionally assumed/legitimized principle of heredity.

E) To meet the challenge, the European country needs to be west of Russia, and no smaller in its metropolitan territory than Portugal. Exclaves or colonies don't count.

F) Although short of the size requirement, a medieval Republic of Denmark, Ireland, Bohemia or Greece meets the challenge.

Archdevil · May 10, 2015

A slightly larger Dutch Republic seems to be the easiest implementation here.

avernite · May 10, 2015

Archdevil said:
A slightly larger Dutch Republic seems to be the easiest implementation here.

Not by 1300.

A Flemish republic might be barely possible by then, but it'd have to include Paris to even approach the size requirement. The Netherlands are still too low on cities by that point.

A minor possibility is a Hansa getting somewhere more countrylike. A few victories against the kings of Denmark/Norway, success against some more bishops, and you'd get a realm possibly more or less stretching from Lübeck to Danzig, Bergen & the IJssel. With at least some continuity, though there's evidently going to be patches of other people's territory inbetween.

Ashtagon · May 10, 2015

Does Iceland count?

raharris1973 · May 10, 2015

Iceland - nope, too peripheral-

what was it's deal OTL anyway, a parliamentary (Althing) ruled society, not really placed under firm control of a Scandinavian King until the Union of Kalmar or something.

Bee · May 11, 2015

Does Switzerland count?

Dathi THorfinnsson · May 28, 2015

Bee said:
Does Switzerland count?

It certainly ought to.

frustrated progressive · May 28, 2015

Do the Italian republics count? If so, Genoa, Pisa, and Venice were already well established before 1300.

Zlorfik · May 29, 2015

Ambrosian republic wank
With particular emphasis on the wank

HunterX · May 29, 2015

Zlorfik said:
Ambrosian republic wank
With particular emphasis on the wank

Too late for the parameters in the OP.

PoorBoy · May 29, 2015

raharris1973 said:
I'm looking for something bigger than the Republic of Venice here.

Here are the specific conditions:

A) The Republic needs to be called a Republic, and be established no later than 1300 AD

B) It needs to last for over 200 years.

C) An elective monarchy is not enough, specifically, the titles of King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Duke, Duchess, Emperor, Empress, any variation on Caesar or Augustus are not permissible under the terms of the challenge.

D) There can be de facto political dynasties, but never a constitutionally assumed/legitimized principle of heredity.

E) To meet the challenge, the European country needs to be west of Russia, and no smaller in its metropolitan territory than Portugal. Exclaves or colonies don't count.

F) Although short of the size requirement, a medieval Republic of Denmark, Ireland, Bohemia or Greece meets the challenge.

So, OTL Genoa and Venice don't count because of your title restriction?

B_Munro · May 29, 2015

avernite said:
Not by 1300.

A minor possibility is a Hansa getting somewhere more countrylike. A few victories against the kings of Denmark/Norway, success against some more bishops, and you'd get a realm possibly more or less stretching from Lübeck to Danzig, Bergen & the IJssel. With at least some continuity, though there's evidently going to be patches of other people's territory inbetween.

Well, intruding patches of other people's territories was the norm for most HRE dynasties at the time...

raharris, when you say it has to be "established" by 1300, do you mean it has to reach necessary size by that point?

How about a Republic of Sicily? (Sicilian Vespers go rather differently).

Bruce

Zlorfik · May 29, 2015

PoorBoy said:
So, OTL Genoa and Venice don't count because of your title restriction?

The very first line of his post is
"I'm looking for something bigger than the Republic of Venice here."

we need a decently-sized expansionist republic... by 1300
maybe Florence?

Nearby communes join voluntarily, or through diplomatic efforts, or through outright conquest. the HRE was quite weakened in Italy due to the lombard league episodes, during which our Fiorentinos can take advantage of the chaos to expand a bit. They have about a century to work with before they hit the deadline.

DominusNovus · May 29, 2015

Zlorfik said:
The very first line of his post is
"I'm looking for something bigger than the Republic of Venice here."

The point was that, since the title of the Venetian ruler is Duke (in the local dialect, Doge), it doesn't count.

B_Munro · May 29, 2015

DominusNovus said:
The point was that, since the title of the Venetian ruler is Duke (in the local dialect, Doge), it doesn't count.

Well, they called themselves a republic, but I suppose you know better than they did.

DominusNovus · May 29, 2015

B_Munro said:
Well, they called themselves a republic, but I suppose you know better than they did.

I'm just going by Rharris's criteria. He said nobody with a title of duke.

Sycamore · May 29, 2015

DominusNovus said:
I'm just going by Rharris's criteria. He said nobody with a title of duke.

So, just have an ATL in which the ruler of Venice picks a different title instead of 'Duke'. Challenge solved...

Dunning Kruger · May 29, 2015

I think you have an issue with concepts regarding the relationship between god an monarchies. A large republic would be seen as a challenge to the Divine Right of Kings in a way that the revolulutionary ideals of the French Revoution were during the Napoleonic wars. Rulers and kings were ordained by god. City state merchant republics could be tolerated as long as they were seen as subservient to the Holy Roman Empire and the such. But have one acquire land mass such that it could legitimately challenge conventional ideas of the time on the nature of power and I dont think that lasts. Too much of a threat to the kings and queens of the age.

Old Airman · May 29, 2015

1. Wank the Terra Mariana
2. Problem solved.

Another approach would be making the Poland a subject of the Holy See. Say, Jadwiga dies before the Union of Krewo is signed, a civil war is coming (or, rather, threatening to become a huge self-destructive fire, not an IOTL minor nuisance) since there're no lawful heirs and Polish church decides to take the matter in it's own hands. Better yet, do it all after the Casimir the Great's death. He was the last Piast, the "natural ruler" of the Poland, the Church becomes the 1st most legitimate pinnacle of power once he's dead and heirless.

kasumigenx · May 29, 2015

Old Airman said:
1. Wank the Terra Mariana
2. Problem solved.

Another approach would be making the Poland a subject of the Holy See. Say, Jadwiga dies before the Union of Krewo is signed, a civil war is coming (or, rather, threatening to become a huge self-destructive fire, not an IOTL minor nuisance) since there're no lawful heirs and Polish church decides to take the matter in it's own hands. Better yet, do it all after the Casimir the Great's death. He was the last Piast, the "natural ruler" of the Poland, the Church becomes the 1st most legitimate pinnacle of power once he's dead and heirless.

There are still Piasts around at that time which are Vladislaus of Opole and Siemowit of Plock, the problem is that they did not get their act together, putting Jadwiga out of the picture would give them breathing space to unite.