Prologue
Fruit of the Pomegranate - A Tudor Timeline

This was entirely random, and I don't really know what came into my head, but then I refused to let it go. Just a tiny prologue for now, as I don't exactly have my books with me at the moment.
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Fruit of the Pomegranate - A Tudor Timeline

490px-Pomegranate_%26_Rose_Badge.svg.png

Rose and Pomegranate Badge of Catherine of Aragon

“In the early hours of 10 November 1518, the Queen went into labour, which lasted well into the night. To the great joy and relief of the entire nation, at exactly ten o'clock in the evening, Queen Catherine of Aragon had given birth to a healthy son. [1]”
“Henry VIII: Husband, Father, King” by Sybille Grégoire
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[1] The POD. OTL, Catherine gave birth to a daughter who was either stillborn or died soon after (sources differ on the matter). It also proved to be her last child, and the lack of sons ultimately led to the Great Matter. Of course, a son ITTL would have a serious effect on England and the Continent.
 
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This was entirely random, and I don't really know what came into my head, but then I refused to let it go. Just a tiny prologue for now, as I don't exactly have my books with me at the moment.

[1] The POD. OTL, Catherine gave birth to a daughter who was either stillborn or died soon after (sources differ on the matter). It also proved to be her last child, and the lack of sons ultimately led to the Great Matter. Of course, a son ITTL would have a serious effect on England and the Continent.

So Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall becomes Henry IX, its a less used, common timeline but it is always nice to see other people's take on not only England and the continent but also the World in general, in a world where the Reformation did not take place and England is still a big player in the Catholic world.
 
Now Imagine, if the son dies with only female issue, and Henry Fitzroy survives longer we could have a serious civil war, or would that be silly?

Daughter of Henry IX of England,
Mary Tudor, with any male child that she produces,
Henry Fitzroy, or his descendants,
James V of Scotland, claiming the marriage is invalid,
 
So England remains catholic. This could be interesting in alternate French Wars of Religion and 30 years war
 
Now Imagine, if the son dies with only female issue, and Henry Fitzroy survives longer we could have a serious civil war, or would that be silly?

Daughter of Henry IX of England,
Mary Tudor, with any male child that she produces,
Henry Fitzroy, or his descendants,
James V of Scotland, claiming the marriage is invalid,
Henry Fitzroy and James V claiming a throne with a monarch on it would be more then silly. James V's mum ruled Scotland well so he can't use their gender as an excuse and the spanis won't send an armada against a catholic monarch especially one who is related (via Catherine of Aragon)
Daughters of Henry IX would be quickly married off unlike Henry VIII

So England remains catholic. This could be interesting in alternate French Wars of Religion and 30 years war
England and France can still fight regardless of religion. It would be more interesting how the popes and ireland turn out with England staying Catholic. One thing for sure. Henry IX will not be the same as his sister mary OTL .
 
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Aphrodite and Eros by Hans Holbein the Younger
The sitters were thought to have been Catherine of Aragon and her son

Hello, crappy PS skills. Update later after class.
 
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So Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall becomes Henry IX, its a less used, common timeline but it is always nice to see other people's take on not only England and the continent but also the World in general, in a world where the Reformation did not take place and England is still a big player in the Catholic world.

Actually, this is different from the two Henrys who were OTL sons of Catherine. This Henry is born after Mary, unlike the OTL sons who were born BEFORE Mary.
 
So, questions:
1) Mary is already betrothed to Francis by this time. How plausible is it for the marriage to actually happen, and if not, who are other candidates for her husband?

2)Who would Henry betroth his son to?

3) Actually, yeah, speaking of the son, Henry at this point would probably think having two dead Henry, Duke of Cornwalls is enough, and would name this son differently. Any suggestions on the Prince's name?
 
Catholic England! Or perhaps Catholic monarchs/aristocrats while the populace becomes more Protestant, leading to rebellions/persecutions? How much Protestant is Scotland at that time? Will this be better for Ireland, or the same old thing?

As for the son's name, use the OTL name given for Henry the Eight's son, Edward right?
 
So, questions:
1) Mary is already betrothed to Francis by this time. How plausible is it for the marriage to actually happen, and if not, who are other candidates for her husband?

2)Who would Henry betroth his son to?

3) Actually, yeah, speaking of the son, Henry at this point would probably think having two dead Henry, Duke of Cornwalls is enough, and would name this son differently. Any suggestions on the Prince's name?

1) Significantly more likely than OTL, since there her betrothal with François was repudiated repeatedly due to the fact that it would lead to the union of the French and English crowns. The odd thing is that OTL Queen Elizabeth was betrothed to François' younger brother, so if Mary's still legitimate then she'll be used to tie France and England together rather.

2) A Habsburg match to offset the Valois betrothal of Mary perhaps? He threatened several times to marry FitzRoy (however unlikely) to D. Maria de Viseu of Portugal, Louise or Charlotte de France, Dorothea or Christine of Denmark, Catherine de Medici etc. I doubt England would like the idea of a double French match, so I would say Maria or Dorothea could be interesting (one for her money, the other for her claim to a throne) though Catherine is heiress to the duchy of Auvergne as long as the duchess of Albany remains childless.

3) Henry or Edward. Those were the two names that HVIII seemed to move between. He considered naming Elizabeth I and Edward VI Henry until he didn't. So Henry for the first son, Edward for the second, Arthur or Edmund for a third would be my best guess.
 
Vivat Henricus Princeps
The update, as promised.
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“The birth and subsequent baptism of the longed-for heir became cause for the massive celebrations that occurred in the Domain.

Two hundred and seventy pounds of gunpowder were spent in firing cannon after cannon of salutes in the Tower. The messengers sent to spread word of the Prince’s birth were rewarded with two gallons of fine wine and £ 20 each for their services. Church bells rang and Te Deums were sung throughout the country. Crude lucikines [1] lit up the night sky and the streets of London overflowed with expensive liquor. But the christening that followed three days afterwards was far more grandiose.

Like his sister, Mary, the Prince was baptized in the Church of the Observant Friars, their mother’s favourite religious order. Posts which carried aloft tapestries depicting scenes from the Gospel were erected from the Great Hall to the church to make way for the processional, thirty feet wide. Inside the Church, the great font of Canterbury stood on a high pedestal, no doubt to allow the spectators outside to witness their Prince’s baptism. The Archbishop of York [2] officiated, and the godparents included Maximilian I of Habsburg and the Queen [Claude] of France, for whom the Earl of Surrey and his sister the Lady Boleyn stood proxy. The boy was christened Henry, like his father. At the confirmation that followed, as dictated by royal etiquette, the Countess of Salisbury acted as godmother. The heralds who cried out his name and titles – ‘Henry, Son and Heir to our most loved Sovereign King Henry VIII of England, Right High, Right Noble Duke Cornwall and Earl Chester’ – were given £ 30 each by the joyous King, a far higher price he paid than when his first son was born.

Protocol dictated that neither King nor Queen be present at the baptism. Instead, Catherine remained in her Chamber, accompanied by her elder daughter Mary. After the christening, the Prince was brought back to her preceded by the baptismal gifts which were carried in order of rank of the giver. This procession was headed by the present from the boy’s godfather: a golden chalice set with fine rubies weighing 40 ounces in total. The gifts and the Prince were presented to the Queen and the Princess by the court ladies. ‘
Madame Marie [sic],’ the French ambassador reports, ‘hath been delighted by the presence of the bonnie Prince and coddled her brother so, remaining with the Prince until the Infant fell asleep in their Mother's arms.’”

- “Catherine the Queen: Her Lifelong Passion” by Anne St. John
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[1] OTL fireworks
[2] Thomas Wolsey
 
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Baptismal Gift of Maximilian I to his godson, Henry of England
Musée Royal de l'Angleterre
 
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2) A Habsburg match to offset the Valois betrothal of Mary perhaps? He threatened several times to marry FitzRoy (however unlikely) to D. Maria de Viseu of Portugal, Louise or Charlotte de France, Dorothea or Christine of Denmark, Catherine de Medici etc. I doubt England would like the idea of a double French match, so I would say Maria or Dorothea could be interesting (one for her money, the other for her claim to a throne) though Catherine is heiress to the duchy of Auvergne as long as the duchess of Albany remains childless.

Unfortunately, all of them sans Charlotte were born post-POD and may not even exist ITTL. Oops.

I realized the Cleves sisters were already born by this time. Maybe one of them as a historical in-joke? Or maybe Anne Bouchier who was a suo jure Baroness (and Catherine Parr's OTL sister-in-law).
 
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Brilliant start ranichi17 look forward to more

Regarding brides what about Catherine of Austria, and although she is eleven years old, this is not a weird thing for medieval marroages and means her body is matured and ready for child birth so he at 14 could get her pregnant at 25. And if she dies in her 40s he would still be young at 30.
Its also a quick alliance with her brother Charles V of HRE - a male line from the tudor branch could claim the throne during the Austrian war of sucession :)

This marriage also frees up John III of Portugal for Mary
 
So after digging around in this site and in Wikipedia, I found some brides for dear Prince Hal. Note that the ones listed are all born pre-POD. Year of birth is enclosed in parentheses.
Moral of the story: EUROPEAN NOBLES HAVE NO CREATIVE NAMING SKILLS

Isabella of Braganza (1514)
- daughter of Jaime of Braganza, nephew of Manuel I of Portugal
- OTL given the Duchy of Guimarães as her dowry

Elisabeth (1510) and Margaret (1511) of Brandenburg
- Hohenzollerns
- Protestant

Margaret Palaeologa (1510)
- OTL became suo jure Marchioness of Montferrat

Renée of France (1510)
- daughter of Louis XII

Isabel of Navarre (1512)
- daughter of John and Catherine de Navarre

Charlotte of France (1516)
- daughter of Francis I of France

Hedwig Jagiellon (1513) and Anna (1515)
- daughters of Sigismund I of Poland
- OTL, Anna died in 1520

Sybille (1512), Anne (1515), and Amalia (1517) of Cleves
- idek
- historical injoke?

Margaret Douglas (1515)
- daughter of Margaret Tudor and the Earl of Angus

Marie de Bourbon (1515)
- daughter of Charles, Duke of Vendôme
- OTL was considered a bride for James V

Marie de Guise (1515)
- OTL queen of James V of Scotland
- eldest daughter of the Duke of Guise

Maria (1515), Emilie (1516) and Sidonia (1518) of Saxony
- members of the House of Wettin
- Protestant

Anne Bourchier (1517)
- OTL became suo jure Baroness Bourchier
- mother Mary Say was lady-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon

Frances Grey (1517)
- daughter of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor

Eleonore (1515) d'Este
- OTL became a nun
- daughter of Alfonso I, Duke of Modena, Ferrara and Reggio
- member of House Welf

Anna of Württemberg (1513)
- daughter of Ulrich, Duke of Württemberg
 
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Well, the whole Protestant thing hasn't gained traction outside of Germany yet, and Henry has (or will still) write a treatise defending the pope and condemning Luther for which he will get the title (somewhat ironic) of "Defender of the Faith" and I think "Most Christian King" went into that somewhere as well. The Pope took those titles back after he excommed Henry and granted the second to the French king AFAIK.

Also, the Cleves/Brandenburg girls were perhaps of Protestant states, but they were still educated as per Catholic Renaissance tradition. I can't remember the exact date, by Brandenburg was a rather late arrival to the Reformation.

For a bride, I'd say scrap Bourchier, Douglas and Grey. The Tudors are still too new a dynasty to be marrying their own subjects (only reason HVIII did it OTL was because most foreign rulers were averse to surrendering their sisters/daughters to be treated as Catherine of Aragon had). Likewise, Palaeologina and Bourbon (and perhaps Guise and Braganza) are not important enough for a future king - none of their fathers rank higher than a duc-pair, not a sovereign duke (like Ferrara or Saxony); for a second son, or a king's cousin, yes, but for a king no. IDK about Isabelle d'Albret and how she might rank, but I should imagine that she and Renée might be regarded as being a bit on the too old side for Hal.
 
Sybille or Amalia

Hello, crappy PS skills. Update later after class.
I quiet like your Photo shopped painting looks authentic to me :)

Moral of the story: EUROPEAN NOBLES HAVE NO CREATIVE NAMING SKILLS
The problem was with all the inbreeding that was going on, it was hard to think of new names.

Isabella of Braganza (1514)
- daughter of Jaime of Braganza, nephew of Manuel I of Portugal
- OTL given the Duchy of Guimarães as her dowry
Would be good to have a married alliance with Portugal but what would happen to the Duchy of Guimarães, would it be given to England as a wedding gift or recalled make to another Portuguese noble.

Elisabeth (1510) and Margaret (1511) of Brandenburg
- Hohenzollerns
- Protestant
The Protestant could make the English public happy but not the Pope or other Catholic leaders.
Also what religion is the heir brought up in? Or would either of these change their religion to be future Queen.

Margaret Palaeologa (1510)
- OTL became suo jure Marchioness of Montferrat
Montferrat is not really a major player in medieval politics, so a marriage to Margaret would not be of any use for the future King.

Renée of France (1510)
- daughter of Louis XII
Charlotte of France (1516)
- daughter of Francis I of France
In OTL Renée would became an important supporter of the Protestant reformation and ally of John Calvin would this still be the case if she is Queen of England.
Charlotte was engaged to Charles I of Spain after the death of her sister Louise in 1517 and would die herself in 1724.

Isabel of Navarre (1512)
- daughter of John and Catherine de Navarre
King Francis may see this as a way for the English to regain the Duchy of Gascony from France and making Navarre into a larger kingdom - so an earlier 9 year war could be on the cards between the two kingdoms.

Hedwig Jagiellon (1513) and Anna (1515)
- daughters of Sigismund I of Poland
- OTL, Anna died in 1520
The Jagiellon family is not very powerful and an alliance with the ill fated Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth will not do England any good.

Sybille (1512), Anne (1515), and Amalia (1517) of Cleves
- historical in joke?
I would hate to subject Anne to be called ugly in another TL so either Sybille or Amalia would be suitable although they both die at a young age. Regarding it as a joke would ruin the TL.

Catherine Parr (1512)
- historical in joke
Parr's mother was a close friend and attendant of Catherine of Aragon, and Catherine Parr was probably named after Queen Catherine, who was her godmother.

Margaret Douglas (1515)
- daughter of Margaret Tudor and the Earl of Angus
Frances Grey (1517)
- daughter of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor
Margaret in her youth she was high in the favour of her uncle, King Henry VIII but angered him firstly by trying to arrange an unauthorised engagement and secondly by having an affair, unflattering qualities in a queen. Her marriage would also butterfly away her grandson, King James VI of Scotland.
Frances Grey another cousin to Prince Henry, and would most likely be a close friend of his as she was close to her aunt Catherine of Aragonand a childhood friend of Princess Mary. Although would their oldest surviving daughter Princess Jane Grey be allowed to become queen or would her aunt Mary step in ... again (As An In Joke.)

Marie de Bourbon (1515)
- daughter of Charles, Duke of Vendôme
- OTL was considered a bride for James V
A Bourbon and Tudor mix could be a dangerous family.

Marie de Guise (1515)
- OTL queen of James V of Scotland
- eldest daughter of the Duke of Guise
A member of the powerful House of Guise, which played a prominent role in 16th-century French politics. Her main goal was a close alliance between the powerful French Catholic and small Scotland but with England staying Catholic she may make England the devoted kingdom, she too may anger the Protestants public.

Anne Bourchier (1517)
- OTL became suo jure Baroness Bourchier
- mother Mary Say was lady-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon

Seems a little plain and can find no art of her, also Anne was related to OTL three queen consorts of Henry VIII; Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, and Catherine Howard who all shared the same great-grandmother Elizabeth Cheney.

Eleonore (1515) d'Este
- OTL became a nun
- daughter of Alfonso I, Duke of Modena, Ferrara and Reggio
- member of House Welf
The correct way of saying her name is, Leonora d'Este, she became a nun in honour of her grandfather, Pope Alexander VI, a member of the House Borgia, famous for being the pope who broke the priestly vow of celibacy and had several legitimately acknowledged children.
Also would the English public want a pious devoted Catholic ruling over them?
 
Riscoperta
“The world where Prince Hal was born into was one awakening from a deep slumber. Western Europe reconciled with its myths, and alongside it, the philosophies of the Ancients. It was Humanity’s Golden Age, and it was aptly referred to as the Riscoperta [1].

The philosophies were not the only ones rediscovered during this age. Riscoperta also became known as the age of the exploration race, which commenced with the Treaty of Tordesillas. Spain and Portugal were the mighty leaders, but Europe would not suffer to allow these two giants to have monopoly. Soon, other nations challenged their authority. And Hal’s England would be spearheading it.”

- “Finding Lost Eden: The Changing World of the Tudors” by Jerome Stark
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[1] Italian for rediscovery
 
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1) I quiet like your Photo shopped painting looks authentic to me :)

2)The problem was with all the inbreeding that was going on, it was hard to think of new names.

3)Would be good to have a married alliance with Portugal but what would happen to the Duchy of Guimarães, would it be given to England as a wedding gift or recalled make to another Portuguese noble.


4)The Protestant could make the English public happy but not the Pope or other Catholic leaders.
Also what religion is the heir brought up in? Or would either of these change their religion to be future Queen.


5)King Francis may see this as a way for the English to regain the Duchy of Gascony from France and making Navarre into a larger kingdom - so an earlier 9 year war could be on the cards between the two kingdoms.

6)I would hate to subject Anne to be called ugly in another TL so either Sybille or Amalia would be suitable although they both die at a young age. Regarding it as a joke would ruin the TL.

7)A Bourbon and Tudor mix could be a dangerous family.

8)The correct way of saying her name is, Leonora d'Este, she became a nun in honour of her grandfather, Pope Alexander VI, a member of the House Borgia, famous for being the pope who broke the priestly vow of celibacy and had several legitimately acknowledged children.
Also would the English public want a pious devoted Catholic ruling over them?

1) Oh, thanks. I just suck at editing.
2) Thank god the Habsburgs aren't that inbred yet in this period, right?
3) I'm guessing either the duchy wouldn't be part of her dowry ITTL, or she passes it on to her second son or daughter.
4) Little Hal is Catholic, so are the rest of the Tudor Court. Remember, the break with the Church only happened during the Great Matter, which is butterflied away ITTL. Also, Protestantism is still a fledgling heresy in HRE, but they'll be causing trouble in a couple of years.
5) And isn't that Henry's Ultimate Evil Plan? ;)
6) Don't we all want a TL where Anne gets a happy married life? I know I do.
7) We might get an early Commonwealth if that happens.
8) They'd probably complain more for having a Queen descended from “that wicked priest.”
 
2) Thank god the Habsburgs aren't that inbred yet in this period, right?

And given that the Tudors will be Catholic for the forseeable future means that the Habsburgs don't just have each other to marry anyway. IOTL one of the reasons they got so inbred was because every other prince of note had broken away from Rome, and those who didn't were either too insignificant (e.g. Bavaria) or too French (the enemy).

And given that England and the Habsburg realms have common cause against the French... why, encirclement is very real. :eek:
 
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