TL-191: After the End

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Egads, he's gonna start WWIII isn't he?

No, just the Third Mexican War.

[MatthewFirth]

I'm planning a couple of timeline's based on David's

1 = A musical timeline
2 = The UK and how it stuggled after the war
3 = How football was effected by this

Anyone willing to help with a collabarative effort?

[GeorgeUK]

England win the 1954, 1974 and 1990 World Cups, with the 1974 one on home soil. They also lose the final in 1966 (against host nation Germany), 1982 (against Italy), 1986 (against Germany again) and 2002 (against Brazil). They also become known for being virtually unbeatable in penalty shootouts.

[MatthewFirth]

Originally Posted by GeorgeUK

England win the 1954, 1974 and 1990 World Cups, with the 1974 one on home soil. They also lose the final in 1966 (against host nation Germany), 1982 (against Italy), 1986 (against Germany again) and 2002 (against Brazil). They also become known for being virtually unbeatable in penalty shootouts.

Good start.

You would be great to help out with the football one.

[Richter von Manthofen]

Originally Posted by GeorgeUK

England win the 1954, 1974 and 1990 World Cups, with the 1974 one on home soil. They also lose the final in 1966 (against host nation Germany), 1982 (against Italy), 1986 (against Germany again) and 2002 (against Brazil). They also become known for being virtually unbeatable in penalty shootouts.

Thats totaly ASB

[Arkhangelsk]

The 1980 world map has been fixed as per David's corrections, thank you.

Here's the Alliances as of 1980.

[Nerdlinger]

I like your 1980 world map a lot, Arkhangelsk. I had a few questions regarding the ownership of some islands (forgive me if I'm nitpicking too much).

1) Palau seems to be owned by Germany on the map, but as near as I can tell, it should be American. In OTL, the Spanish sold Palau to the Germans in 1899 following their defeat in the Spanish-American War. However, since this war was butterflied away in TL-191, Palau should have been in Spanish hands until the Hispano-Japanese War of the first decades of the 1900s. At that point, the Japanese would have seized control. Though Palau was not mentioned in the Treaty of Sapporo, I assume it was turned over to the US along with the other Japanese island possessions after the Fourth Pacific War. There is the chance that the Germans could have taken Palau from the Japanese at some point before the Fourth Pacific War, but there does not seem to be any indication whatsoever of Palau's fate either in the TL-191 books or in After the End.

2) Easter Island is shown as being under American control. I would think that it would be Chilean. Based on Turtledove's general ignoring of butterflies in matters not concerning the USA or CSA, Easter Island should have been picked up by Chile in 1888 as in OTL. Given that Chile was an American ally, it seems unlikely that the US would have taken the island away. The only reason I can think of for Easter Island to be American in 1980 is if the British (or French) took control of it in one of the Great Wars and the US subsequently took it back. If this were the case, however, I don't see any reason why the US wouldn't give it back to Chile.

3) St. Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha seem to be under British control, but since the British seem to have lost every other overseas possession, it's likely that they are no longer British (probably American, if I had to guess).

4) The Virgin Islands only appear as two tiny islands on the map, the southern of which is probably St. Croix of the OTL US Virgin Islands. I'm guessing the northern island is Tortola of the OTL British Virgin Islands -- while it could be St. Thomas or St. John of the OTL US Virgin Islands, it'd make sense for that island to be Tortola so that both the US and British VI could be represented on the map. Both islands are indicated as being owned by Denmark. While it makes sense that the OTL US VI would still be Danish (the US purchase of the islands in 1917 in OTL would likely have been butterflied away due to the reduced presence of the US in the Caribbean in TL-191), I would think that the British VI would have been seized by the US after one of the Great Wars along with the rest of the Entente Caribbean islands.

5) The Caribbean island shown as being split between the US and the Netherlands is not likely St. Martin, but rather St. Kitts. As such, it should be all American. Starting east of the Virgin Islands and moving from north to south along the Lesser Antilles island chain, I'd would guess that the islands shown are:

Barbuda (to represent Antigua and Barbuda, though the former is missing)
St. Kitts (to represent St. Kitts and Nevis)
Montserrat
Guadeloupe
Dominica
Martinique
St. Lucia
St. Vincent
one of the Grenadines
Grenada

The easternmost island is Barbados, and the two south of Grenada are Tobago and Trinidad.

In this way, every independent nation in the Caribbean in OTL is represented (as are two dependencies of France and one of the UK). St. Martin is therefore not represented on the map, though this was not too problematic in OTL until recently, when the Netherlands Antilles (already represented further south on the map along the coast of Venezuela) broke up and French St. Martin split off from Guadeloupe.


Anyone can let me know if I'm off-base on anything here.

[MatthewFirth]

Originally Posted by Richter von Manthofen

Thats totaly ASB

Good.

What about European Championship's though?

[CT23]

A question about Colombia: in one of the American Empire books, it was mentioned Colombia was an American ally, so shouldn't they be in the blue alliance?

[Petike]

Originally Posted by Richter von Manthofen

Thats totaly ASB

*sighs*

Because TL 191 is totally plausible...

[Arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

I like your 1980 world map a lot, Arkhangelsk. I had a few questions regarding the ownership of some islands (forgive me if I'm nitpicking too much).

1) Palau seems to be owned by Germany on the map, but as near as I can tell, it should be American. In OTL, the Spanish sold Palau to the Germans in 1899 following their defeat in the Spanish-American War. However, since this war was butterflied away in TL-191, Palau should have been in Spanish hands until the Hispano-Japanese War of the first decades of the 1900s. At that point, the Japanese would have seized control. Though Palau was not mentioned in the Treaty of Sapporo, I assume it was turned over to the US along with the other Japanese island possessions after the Fourth Pacific War. There is the chance that the Germans could have taken Palau from the Japanese at some point before the Fourth Pacific War, but there does not seem to be any indication whatsoever of Palau's fate either in the TL-191 books or in After the End.

2) Easter Island is shown as being under American control. I would think that it would be Chilean. Based on Turtledove's general ignoring of butterflies in matters not concerning the USA or CSA, Easter Island should have been picked up by Chile in 1888 as in OTL. Given that Chile was an American ally, it seems unlikely that the US would have taken the island away. The only reason I can think of for Easter Island to be American in 1980 is if the British (or French) took control of it in one of the Great Wars and the US subsequently took it back. If this were the case, however, I don't see any reason why the US wouldn't give it back to Chile.

3) St. Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha seem to be under British control, but since the British seem to have lost every other overseas possession, it's likely that they are no longer British (probably American, if I had to guess).

4) The Virgin Islands only appear as two tiny islands on the map, the southern of which is probably St. Croix of the OTL US Virgin Islands. I'm guessing the northern island is Tortola of the OTL British Virgin Islands -- while it could be St. Thomas or St. John of the OTL US Virgin Islands, it'd make sense for that island to be Tortola so that both the US and British VI could be represented on the map. Both islands are indicated as being owned by Denmark. While it makes sense that the OTL US VI would still be Danish (the US purchase of the islands in 1917 in OTL would likely have been butterflied away due to the reduced presence of the US in the Caribbean in TL-191), I would think that the British VI would have been seized by the US after one of the Great Wars along with the rest of the Entente Caribbean islands.

5) The Caribbean island shown as being split between the US and the Netherlands is not likely St. Martin, but rather St. Kitts. As such, it should be all American. Starting east of the Virgin Islands and moving from north to south along the Lesser Antilles island chain, I'd would guess that the islands shown are:

Barbuda (to represent Antigua and Barbuda, though the former is missing)
St. Kitts (to represent St. Kitts and Nevis)
Montserrat
Guadeloupe
Dominica
Martinique
St. Lucia
St. Vincent
one of the Grenadines
Grenada

The easternmost island is Barbados, and the two south of Grenada are Tobago and Trinidad.

In this way, every independent nation in the Caribbean in OTL is represented (as are two dependencies of France and one of the UK). St. Martin is therefore not represented on the map, though this was not too problematic in OTL until recently, when the Netherlands Antilles (already represented further south on the map along the coast of Venezuela) broke up and French St. Martin split off from Guadeloupe.


Anyone can let me know if I'm off-base on anything here.

Oh no the nitpicking is fine, I'm glad to see the map being analyzed so, it's the only way I can improve them, so thank you!

All your points seem valid to me, I think it was just a matter of me overlooking these tiny little islands, and from the sound of it you sound correct in your assessment. I'm gonna go ahead and fix them as per your corrections. DBE, what do you think?

Anyway, thank you Nerdlinger.

[jycee]

Originally Posted by CT23

A question about Colombia: in one of the American Empire books, it was mentioned Colombia was an American ally, so shouldn't they be in the blue alliance?

I was wondering the same, and was actually thinking that it should be possible for some countries to be members of more than one alliance. Colombia, for example, meets both the requirements to join the CDS and the IM.

Unless being a member of the CDS is seen by most as becoming an American puppet willingly. However, now that Russia and China are in they are probably almost on equal footing with the US as senior partners.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk

The 1980 world map has been fixed as per David's corrections, thank you.

Here's the Alliances as of 1980.

Good map, Arkhangelsk!

[Mac Gregor]

Let me first say I love this TL and can't wait for it to come back.

Something that could use a little work though would be the central Asian states. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the boundaries of the 5 “stans” are largely a result of Soviet era population shifts. With no USSR in the TL, shouldn’t they be considerable different?

[CT23]

Did Germany complete the takeover of Alsace-Lorraine?

[Saladan]

will texas ever rejoin the US?

seems like it would be nice for old union to be truly reunited

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by CT23

Did Germany complete the takeover of Alsace-Lorraine?

I would assume so, given that it never lost it (well, except temporarily in the Settling Accounts series)

[Vexacus]

After looking at the map, I take it the Republic of Ezo does not have a territorial dispute with Russia over the Northern Territories?

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by Vexacus

After looking at the map, I take it the Republic of Ezo does not have a territorial dispute with Russia over the Northern Territories?

It's not like they're in any position to complain?

[jycee]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Something that could use a little work though would be the central Asian states. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the boundaries of the 5 “stans” are largely a result of Soviet era population shifts. With no USSR in the TL, shouldn’t they be considerable different? [/FONT]

Kazakhstan's border with Russia is different, but aside from that the rest are the same. Guess it goes with the whole ignoring certain butterflies theme of TL 191.