AH Challange: A Chinese "Raj".

[Spitfiremk1]

In other words, your challange is to have either the British Monarch or a Member of the British Royal Family declare themselves and rule as Emperor of China, similar to how Queen Victoria declared herself Empress of India in OTL. Good Luck .

[Jaded_Railman]

Originally Posted by Spitfiremk1

In other words, your challange is to have either the British Monarch or a Member of the British Royal Family declare themselves and rule as Emperor of China, similar to how Queen Victoria declared herself Empress of India in OTL. Good Luck .

I've idly considered this one ever since I saw Shanghai Knights and one of the characters casually mentions that the Chinese should see the wisdom of the Indians and submit themselves to Her Britannic Majesty.

I really don't think it can be done. Chinese nationalism was too strong by the point in time that the British had the technical ability to beat Chinese armies one on one.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

That's the same reason I've pondered this. In my opinion, the closest the British could come to ruling China is by installing a puppet emperor. China during the 19th and 20th Centuries was huge though; before Tibetan and Mongolian independence it controlled huge tracts of land, too much for the British to handle if they have India as well.

I can see Britain controlling more of China than just Hong Kong, like maybe in the Opium Wars Britain demands more land from China. Maybe the Chinese cede a whole region or something like that. Rice and tea coming out of China could prove economically fruitful for the British, but that and spices was coming out of India and Burma anyway.

Additionally, too many other nations had influence over China and various alliances and trade networks were established. Portugal, France and even Germany were connected to China in major ways. The British would be pissing off a lot of other nations if they took on the entire Chinese Empire.

Aside from pride, the British wouldn't get that much more out of China that they weren't already getting out of India.

[ddtim]

Originally Posted by Emperor-of-New-Zealand

Aside from pride, the British wouldn't get that much more out of China that they weren't already getting out of India.

yeah. more soldiers though. greater man power.

[B_Munro]

The trouble is that the Chinese are

1. A unified state and culture: Europeans won't get very far using the "divide and conquer" method, and any British conquest would require a far larger expenditure of resources than the conquest of India, and might not even been technically very feasible until the 19th century.

2. Generally only accepting of foreign rule if said foreigners adopt their customs. Indians before 1700 was accustomed to being ruled by people of a different religion or from a distant location: in China, in spite of such discriminatory actions as the imposition of the pigtail, the Manchus had become quite sinicized and indeed had become so _before_ the invasion, while most local administration was still in the hands of local elites. The British aren't going to go Chinese, especially if they conquer in the more culturally arrogant 19th century rather than the 18th.

Troops? The Chinese are not what the British would consider a "martial" race: soldiering has been for a long time considered a sortof low-class occupation in China, and although the Manchu had their own forces which they treated with respect, they were generally horse-mounted lancers, bowmen, etc. - will they be useful for Zulu-fighting in the plains of Natal or whatever? If the British try to build up an effective Chinese army, its loyalty will be suspect: while an Indian force is broken up between Sikhs and Muslims and Gurkhas, etc., the Chinese army will be all Chinese [1] and much liklier to close ranks against foreign devils.

Frankly, I think we need to have China in the middle of a "contending states" period when the British get involved for this to work out at all, and I seriously doubt the Chinese elites are ever going to accept some elderly female foreign devil 30,000 Li away as their rightful ruler.

[1] Unless they contract heavily among the minorities of Tibet, Xianjing, etc. But really, this isn't going to get you anything you couldn't be recruiting a bit more heavily in India.

Bruce

[The Kiat]

The Limeys wouldn't be the first Foreign Devils to set up a Dynasty in China.

[IMP CAES AVG]

B Munro essentially says it all. However, could one conceivably see the British monarch, or a Chinese puppet emperor ruling southern China and the area around Hong Kong in a manner similar to what they Japanese Empire did with Puyi and Manchukou?

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

The Limeys wouldn't be the first Foreign Devils to set up a Dynasty in China.

First to rule from thousands of miles away, first to refuse to adopt the local culture, first to run local industries and handicrafts into the ground with imports of cheap British manufactures, first Monotheists trying to push the locals into abandoning their gods and ancestors with the protection of the state behimd them, first to close parks to dogs and Chinese....I could go on.

Bruce

[The Kiat]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

First to rule from thousands of miles away, first to refuse to adopt the local culture, first to run local industries and handicrafts into the ground with imports of cheap British manufactures, first Monotheists trying to push the locals into abandoning their gods and ancestors with the protection of the state behimd them, first to close parks to dogs and Chinese....I could go on.

Bruce

Oh, by all means, continue. They would not be the first foreign dynasty though; Mongols as Yuan and Manchu as Qing.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

First to rule from thousands of miles away, first to refuse to adopt the local culture, first to run local industries and handicrafts into the ground with imports of cheap British manufactures, first Monotheists trying to push the locals into abandoning their gods and ancestors with the protection of the state behimd them, first to close parks to dogs and Chinese....I could go on.

Bruce

But S.M. Stirling said it would be easy!

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by The Kiat

Oh, by all means, continue. They would not be the first foreign dynasty though; Mongols as Yuan and Manchu as Qing.

I think perhaps you do not comprehend my point.

Bruce

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by IMP CAES AVG

B Munro essentially says it all. However, could one conceivably see the British monarch, or a Chinese puppet emperor ruling southern China and the area around Hong Kong in a manner similar to what they Japanese Empire did with Puyi and Manchukou?

Quite possibly. In the case of a Chinese civil war, they could set themselves up as the protectors of the "legitimate" ruler. Hm - isn't that what happened to Manchu China (which had a little Taiping problem) in "Decades of Darkness?"

Bruce

[Flocculencio]

Originally Posted by ddtim

yeah. more soldiers though. greater man power.

How much more do they need? India was already a ripe recruiting ground for vast numbers of soldiers.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Flocculencio

How much more do they need? India was already a ripe recruiting ground for vast numbers of soldiers.

The problem, after all, is not the number of warm bodies, but whether you can equip them, feed them, etc...if you follow a policy of not industrializing your colonies, this will be a problem.

Bruce