A Dieppe-style Sealion

[Jason]

Ok, Sealion as a full scale invasion is a no-go. We all know that is a basic law of AH.com. However, would a raid on southern England be a possibly, similar to the Dieppe Raid?

Could we imagine at a stage in 1940, perhaps not long after Dunkirk, where Hitler and/or the German High Command realise a full scale invasion will not work so instead propose a large scale raid on the southern coast as a way of scaring the British ("we can raid you, so what's to stop us invading?") and for the obvious publicity coup it would be? A place such as Dover could be selected as the target.

Would such a raid stand a chance or is it as doomed as a full sized Sealion?

[yourworstnightmare]

Wouldn't Germany then waste an awful amount of resources for an operation they might gain nothing from?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Wouldn't Germany then waste an awful amount of resources for an operation they might gain nothing from?

You're quite right. I was just wondering if anyone thought it was any more practical than shh, you know what Plus, it's not something I can remember anyone else suggesting.

[Buddha039]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Wouldn't Germany then waste an awful amount of resources for an operation they might gain nothing from?

How would that be any different from OTL?!

[rudebadger]

If I were the Nazi's (and didn't have my head up my ass), I would have launched a raid on England to gather information on Britain's radar network.

Similar to the Allied raid on France later on to scope out German radar.

[Derek Jackson]

Someone would have to be very stupid in the Nazi leadership to attempt a large scale raid- however that it not so unlikely in OTL.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by rudebadger

If I were the Nazi's (and didn't have my head up my ass), I would have launched a raid on England to gather information on Britain's radar network.

Similar to the Allied raid on France later on to scope out German radar.

That's what I thought - but with more destructive intent see

http://alternatehistory.com/discussi...ad.pht?t=98022

[The Dean]

This is an interesting idea. The question is where to mount the raid. Places like the Isle of Wight or Purbeck peninsular are close to large Army or Naval bases, Bovington and Portsmouth, so not a good option. I think the Isle of Thanet in East Kent would be my first choice. It has the fishing ports of Ramsgate and Margate, plenty of beaches and the virtue of being within range of Me 109s. Local air superiority could be achieved and a landing force could run amok for several days. RAF Manston had been abandoned as a front line station by mid 1940, so destroying the the Stour bridge at Richborough and blocking the Thanet Way would cut off the peninsular from the rest of Kent.

[Atreus]

If I remember correctly, Dieppe was basically a live drill for the actual invasion of France launched in 1944. So this implies that hitler and company are planning for it to come later on. In the unlikely event that they decide to stick with the idea, this messes with Barbarossa. The germans need all the troops they can throw into the assault, and if they attack in 1941 they will need a lot of boots on the ground to take England. Knowing Hitler, he will decide a gamble to take england is less important than polishing off the USSR.

[DMA]

I reject your basic law of AH.Com & replace it with my own!

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DMA

I reject your basic law of AH.Com & replace it with my own!

Which is?

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Jason

Which is?

Sealion can be successful. You've just got to throw out all the OTL plans!

[Markus]

Originally Posted by Jason

A place such as Dover could be selected as the target.

And was probably even better defended than Dieppe, which wasn´t a major port.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Markus

And was probably even better defended than Dieppe, which wasn´t a major port.

True, true...maybe the Isle of Wight could be a target? I don't think there were large forces on the island.

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Jason

True, true...maybe the Isle of Wight could be a target? I don't think there were large forces on the island.

If you want to conduct a German raid on Britain, in early 1941, make it target which will do the maximum amount of damage with the least risk. Needless to say, there's nothing worthwhile on the Isle of Wight, but some ship building port, like say Newcastle Upon Tyne, maybe worth the risk.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by DMA

If you want to conduct a German raid on Britain, in early 1941, make it target which will do the maximum amount of damage with the least risk. Needless to say, there's nothing worthwhile on the Isle of Wight, but some ship building port, like say Newcastle Upon Tyne, maybe worth the risk.

Good point, my reasoning behind the Isle of Wight is that a raid there (due to the light defences, as far as I know) might also make it back home-whereas against a place like Newcastle (I would imagine it would be much better defended), it might get wiped out. From a PR point of view, a raid that lands on British soil and makes it back looks better than one that doesn't (even if it does more real damage).

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Jason

Good point, my reasoning behind the Isle of Wight is that a raid there (due to the light defences, as far as I know) might also make it back home-whereas against a place like Newcastle (I would imagine it would be much better defended), it might get wiped out. From a PR point of view, a raid that lands on British soil and makes it back looks better than one that doesn't (even if it does more real damage).

About the only major defences, AFAIK, at Newcastle in WWII was the battery at Tynemouth Castle. Other than that there was the obvious submarine barrier across the mouth of the Tyne. Now, under the cover of darkness, either E-Boats or U-Boats could drop off German commandos, deal with the battery of guns, which in turn should let whatever amphib forces land, do their thing of destruction, then evacuate later on before any substancial British force could arrive to deal with the raid.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Jason

True, true...maybe the Isle of Wight could be a target? I don't think there were large forces on the island.

Well, in that case, the Channel Islands is your Dieppe Raid.

[Ferdinand Koenig]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

Well, in that case, the Channel Islands is your Dieppe Raid.

Geographically, you can't really compare the Channel Islands to the Isle of Wight. The Channel Islands were just a few miles off the coast France, while the Isle of Wight is separated from mainlaind England by a very narrow channel, possibly less than a mile wide in some places. I'm not sure, but the Isle of Wight may even have a sort of causeway connecting it to England (although perhaps not then).

[The Dean]

Originally Posted by Ferdinand Koenig

Geographically, you can't really compare the Channel Islands to the Isle of Wight. The Channel Islands were just a few miles off the coast France, while the Isle of Wight is separated from mainlaind England by a very narrow channel, possibly less than a mile wide in some places. I'm not sure, but the Isle of Wight may even have a sort of causeway connecting it to England (although perhaps not then).

It's St Michaels Mount in Cornwall that is connected to the mainland with a causeway. The Isle of Wight is several miles offshore with deep water for the largest ships between it and the mainland even at the lowest tide. The Channel Islands are so close to France we abandoned them in 1940 without a fight after France fell and they remained in German hands until the surrender of all German forces.