Most Brutal Dictator/Communist Leader

Most Brutal Dictator/Communist Leader


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My first knee-jerk reaction was to vote for Hitler, who was withour doubt the most EVIL. But after considering that BRUTAL was the operative term, I flipped a coin between Stalin and Mao...and chose Stalin. Hitler's pure evil led him to the most morally reprehensible genocide of modern times, but in some respects I suspect his view of the world was not dictated by the same crude brutality as Mao or Stalin. In many respects, the forced collectivization and massive industrialization undertaken by Uncle Joe and Chairman Mao were more brutal in their intent and outcome than the holocaust.
 
Hitler.

The death toll of Stalin's regime might have been higher, but it was a longer period of time, and Hitler killed a greater number BY INTENT. Most of Stalin's deaths were regrettable side effects of necessary de-bourgeoisification.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
The death toll of Stalin's regime might have been higher, but it was a longer period of time, and Hitler killed a greater number BY INTENT. Most of Stalin's deaths were regrettable side effects of necessary de-bourgeoisification.

What about all the loyal military officers slaughtered during the purges? Or the German soldiers sent to Siberia or massacred? (although, to be fair, the Germans did pretty much the same thing to the Russians).
 
My choices

ConfederateFly said:
Which Dictator/Communist Leader was the most Brutal and tell why?
I voted for Josef Stalin. But truth be told it's a bit of a toss up between him and Adolf Hitler and Mao Zedong.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
The death toll of Stalin's regime might have been higher, but it was a longer period of time, and Hitler killed a greater number BY INTENT. Most of Stalin's deaths were regrettable side effects of necessary de-bourgeoisification.

Stalin's starvation of the Ukraine (where the majority of his twenty-odd million murder victims died), the millions who "disappeared," were shot in the back of the head by the NKVD and dumped in mass graves in the forests, and the millions who were sent to be worked to death in the gulags were all intentional. They were not "regrettable side-effects." Maybe he didn't herd people into gas chambers and ovens (he starved them or shot them in the back of the head instead), but they ended up just as dead.
 
Unprovable.

robertp6165 said:
Stalin's starvation of the Ukraine (where the majority of his twenty-odd million murder victims died), the millions who "disappeared," were shot in the back of the head by the NKVD and dumped in mass graves in the forests, and the millions who were sent to be worked to death in the gulags were all intentional. They were not "regrettable side-effects." Maybe he didn't herd people into gas chambers and ovens (he starved them or shot them in the back of the head instead), but they ended up just as dead.

I don't see how it is supportable to say that Stalin intentionally starved the Ukraine. The entire Soviet Union was collectivized, the Ukraine was just hardest hit because it was the most agricultural. There is no evidence that Stalin's aim was to cause millions of deaths, it was just carrying out the most basic aim of communism.
 
Unprovable and unsupportable.

robertp6165 said:
Stalin's starvation of the Ukraine (where the majority of his twenty-odd million murder victims died), the millions who "disappeared," were shot in the back of the head by the NKVD and dumped in mass graves in the forests, and the millions who were sent to be worked to death in the gulags were all intentional. They were not "regrettable side-effects." Maybe he didn't herd people into gas chambers and ovens (he starved them or shot them in the back of the head instead), but they ended up just as dead.

Collectivization is the most basic aim of communism, and the entire Soviet Union was collectivized, not just the Ukraine, which suffered the most only because it was the most heavily agricultural. I don't see how its possible to claim it was a deliberate attempt to kill Ukrainians, nor do I see why Stalin should wish to kill off the Ukrainians, since the population decline disrupted the economy and put his regime at risk. I don't see why everyone has to see a genocidal motive behind everything anyone does that causes deaths. Communism is a bad idea, it didn't work, and contrary to expectation, collectivization drastically reduced agricultural productivity rather than raising it.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Collectivization is the most basic aim of communism, and the entire Soviet Union was collectivized, not just the Ukraine, which suffered the most only because it was the most heavily agricultural. I don't see how its possible to claim it was a deliberate attempt to kill Ukrainians, nor do I see why Stalin should wish to kill off the Ukrainians, since the population decline disrupted the economy and put his regime at risk. I don't see why everyone has to see a genocidal motive behind everything anyone does that causes deaths. Communism is a bad idea, it didn't work, and contrary to expectation, collectivization drastically reduced agricultural productivity rather than raising it.

Fortunately, not everyone is an apologist for communist dictators. See the following link and it will explain how and why Stalin murdered the Ukrainians by starvation. They siezed the grain, put it in guarded silos, and let it sit there...intentionally...while the peasants starved.

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

and another one...

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/famine.html
 

Straha

Banned
I have no idea and on another note I'm working on my first piece of AH fiction to post on the amateur writer's forum...
 
Whatever.

robertp6165 said:
Fortunately, not everyone is an apologist for communist dictators. See the following link and it will explain how and why Stalin murdered the Ukrainians by starvation. They siezed the grain, put it in guarded silos, and let it sit there...intentionally...while the peasants starved.

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

and another one...

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/famine.html

You found it on the internet so it must be true. Thanks for being civil, BTW.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
You found it on the internet so it must be true. Thanks for being civil, BTW.

I have seen the same thing in printed books. Does it make it more true if it is in a printed book? The truth is the truth, wherever it is printed.

I have also spoken to Ukrainians who were there (or in some cases whose parents or grandparents were there)...and who saw the very things described in these articles. I have no reason at all to doubt these people.

At least I bothered to try to locate some easily accessable sources for my argument. What sources have you offered?
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I don't see how it is supportable to say that Stalin intentionally starved the Ukraine. The entire Soviet Union was collectivized, the Ukraine was just hardest hit because it was the most agricultural. There is no evidence that Stalin's aim was to cause millions of deaths, it was just carrying out the most basic aim of communism.


...and that is why I would argue that Stalin's regime was more brutal, while Hitler's was more evil. To Stalin the death of millions was of no consequence as long as the baisic aims of communism were being carried out. Stalin would have killed 100 million Russians to build his factories and collectivise his farms - Hitler would have stopped when he ran out of untermenchen. Hitler actually desired the death of his victims on a nearly personal level, to Stalin they were merely impersonal debris to be pushed out of the way. I see the latter as more brutal.
 
Here're some books, for those of us who don't trust Internet sources much...

1) "Harvest of Sorrow" by Robert Conquest

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-4500604-7183920?v=glance&s=books

2) "Execution by Hunger: The Hidden Holocaust" by Miron Dolot

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_1/104-4500604-7183920?v=glance&s=books

3) "The Black Book of Communism" by Stephan Courtois, et. al.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-4500604-7183920?v=glance&s=books

For the opposite view...

"Fraud, Famine, and Fascism" by Tottle (no first name given)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-4500604-7183920?v=glance&s=books
 
As a %, Pol Pot was the most malevolent. 1/4 to 1/3 of your country's population is BAD. However, in absolute terms, Stalin and/or Mao top the most-killed scale, with Hitler a close third (when WWII in Europe is included).
 
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