Richard the Great (Double Blind)

What would England (and therfore of course the world) look like had our greatest King, Richard III, been killed at the Battle of Bosworth instead of the foul usurper Henry Crookback?
 

Diamond

Banned
Well, I've heard certain heretical 'historians' claim that without Good Richard's 50-year reign, England might've been saddled with the same kind of Protestant mania that wracked the German states and Scandinavia for so long until the Papal Coalition took care of business and wiped out the Lutherans and other idiots.

Can you imagine that? No Anglo-Spanish Alliance and hegemony over the Americas and Scandinavia; no Holy Catholic Dominion; the Japanese would've never been converted in the 1600s; probably a whole lot of other things I can't even imagine...
 

Faeelin

Banned
What timeline are you posting from, Diamond? Japanese conversion was almost ineveitable, once faced with a monotheistic religion.

I wonder. Would a tradition of less absolutist kings avoided the english revolution of 1789?
 

Susano

Banned
I do not think that had anything to do with political leadership or religious doctrines - hah, why revolt when the one true faith belongs to you? No, rather, teh economical system was so old, and weak, it couldnt bear england any longer, so to speak.
 
Susano, let us not underestimate the significance of Good King Richard's visionary reign and his worthy chancellor, Sir Thomas More.

Further, most of Japan's poor were forever chafing under the Hindu faith, once the superiority of the true church had appeared, conversion was inevitable. Of course, without the wisdom of popes like Richeliu and Mazarin, it MIGHT have been more difficult.

I will admit that without such brilliant popes like Richeliu, Mazarin, and the first English pope in centuries, Sir Benjamin Franklin, the faith might have taken longer to prevail over the Islamic powers of Turkey and Poland but...
 
OOC: OK, if we are to make things double blind why not post a time line so we know what we can work with?
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Landshark said:
What would England (and therfore of course the world) look like had our greatest King, Richard III, been killed at the Battle of Bosworth instead of the foul usurper Henry Crookback?

Ah, you revisionists, ever heard that 'history is written by the victors' ? You look at Richard's 20 year reign and see stability for the sole reason that he was not deposed. But others can look and see the constant rebellions - from Buckingham to Tudor to de la Pole on his marriage, to Warwick. This is not greatness, this is survival only.

Surely, Henrey Tudor had no support apart from the ancient Lancastrians of Henry VI and his dead son, but the remains of the de Veres, the Courtenays and the Beauforts could make a beginning of a power base. Surely no worse than that available to Richard The Great after the destruction of Dorset, Buckingham and Tudor. Sure to tell, the majorioty of the major nobility were neutral, straws swaying in the wind - Stanley, Percy, and the earls of Arundel

So, had Henry slain Richard ? Twenty years of civil war...different sides, again shown to be victories though they were far less, and the reign of the next king, the equivalent to the great Edward V the really important one. Could Henry VIII (probable name) have withstood the forces of Potestantism, come to an arrangement with James The Great of Scotland and kept England safe as a great Catholic power ? If not, he would be the lesser man beside reality's Edward V, son of Richard The Great

Grey Wolf
 

Diamond

Banned
mattep74 said:
OOC: OK, if we are to make things double blind why not post a time line so we know what we can work with?

Especially since people contradict each other from post to post, instead of building off what the last person came up with... ;)
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Diamond said:
Especially since people contradict each other from post to post, instead of building off what the last person came up with... ;)

I think most people simpluy answer the original question; I looked at the other responses but did not feel beholden to respond to them rather to reply to the original post and idea

Grey Wolf
 
Any TL about the kingdom of Great Richard III? Info info about the end of this "new" War of the Roses?

I find this a bit confusing, sorry.... :confused:
 
Another Bosworth..

Extract from "Years of Turmoil" Chapter 6...

The terrible bloodletting of the mid-15th Century vitually extinguished the royal houses of England. The final triumph at Tewkesbury and the subsequent death of Henry VI seemed to have assured the Yorkist line of dominance but the internal schisms of that family brought new turmoil in the 1480s. The death of Edward IV and the murders of his sons Edward and Richard soon after seemed to be a clever coup d'etat by Richard III, brother of the late king.

However, his victory proved short-lived as Edward's surviving daughter, Margaret, rose in revolt against him in 1485. Her not unwilling accomplice was Henry Tudor and his forces landed at Milford Haven on 7 August 1485. Fifteen days later, the two armies met in Leicestershire at Bosworth. In the ferocious fighting that followed, thousands died and in fact both armies were virtually annihilated with only scattered survivors leaving the field.

The bloodiest battle in English history ended with both protagonists, Richard III and Henry Tudor dead. Shakespeare's apocryhal account of a final battele between Richard and Henry and the desperate "A sword, a sword, my kingdom for a sword" as Richard is disarmed and killed by Henry seconds before Henry himself is killed with the dying words "O shining angel, for a moment the kingdom was mine but tis not to be, I die..." have enraptured theatre audiences down the centuries. However, the truth is more prosaic. The bodies of the two leaders were found well apart from each other. Henry was killed by a sword blow from the front but Richard III was killed by a blow from behind.

With both armies shattered, the way was clear for Margaret but she had no ambition to be Queen but to be Regent for the young Edward Plantagenent, son of Clarence, murdered by Richard III. Whether Henry Tudor, had he lived, would have accepted this is debatable but the coronation of Edward VI and the Regency of Margaret was to usher in a period of much-needed peace and consolidation for England.
 
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