The Dutch Seize Brazil

What if...

In 1638, Johan Maurits of Nassau, the Governor of Dutch Caribbean and South American holdings, led an assault on the city of Salvador. Had Salvador, the major Portuguese stronghold in Brazil, fallen, the Dutch would have been securely in possession of northern Brazil, with the takeover of the rest probable before end of the 1640s.

So, now we have an entirely Dutch Brazil. Could Brazilië (Dutch word for Brazil) have attracted enough northern European Protestants to survive? Could it, in conjunction with South Africa, eventually have become and independent nation? Would it have been seized by the British during the Anglo-Dutch Wars? What would, in 1650, the future of Brazilië look like?

P.S. I got (actually, more like stole) this idea from one of Faeelin's posts on SHWI.
 
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Straha

Banned
IMHO something like amazonia would be a more likely name than brazilie but other than that its all good
 

Straha

Banned
yep and I think the most it could hold would be the northern section of brazil with slavery beign abolished in the 1890s....
 
The trouble is the Spanish. They saw South America as theirs (it was given to them bu the Pope). I can't imagine that they would set back quietly and allow the heritics to control a section without a fight.
 
The trouble is the Spanish. They saw South America as theirs (it was given to them bu the Pope). I can't imagine that they would set back quietly and allow the heritics to control a section without a fight.

only part of south america was theres...the continent was split in 2 parts...the qwestern and central parts where spainish, but the eastern parts and coast were portugeuese
 
The Dutch would've had to fight tooth and nail to hold it, it was really prime real estate, and South America/the Carribean was where the Dutch strength lay.

The OTL loss of Brazil even threatened to cause economic disaster in one of the Provinces. However the Dutch were capable of holding it, if it weren't for incompetent management and decreasing power in the WIC. Thats something people often forget, Dutch colonies were not Goverment property untill the 19th century, they were private property.
 
bumping this one too.
You do realise that bumping a threat from 8 years ago, certainly without adding anything to it and just saying "bumping this one too" is frowned upon this site and people have been kicked and even banned for repeatedly doing this?

Certainly in the case of such a small threat, you better just start a new one if you are interested in the topic.
 
You do realise that bumping a threat from 8 years ago, certainly without adding anything to it and just saying "bumping this one too" is frowned upon this site and people have been kicked and even banned for repeatedly doing this?

Certainly in the case of such a small threat, you better just start a new one if you are interested in the topic.

yeah, restart one on the same more or less topic, as he said.
 
You do realise that bumping a threat from 8 years ago, certainly without adding anything to it and just saying "bumping this one too" is frowned upon this site and people have been kicked and even banned for repeatedly doing this?

Certainly in the case of such a small threat, you better just start a new one if you are interested in the topic.
Link to the old one, certainly.
Say, "I was browsing and I found this neat thread .... "
But even that works a whole lot better if you actually ADD something to the discussion.
 
Like the idea.
So, Maurice of Nassau Siegen, succesfully conquer Salvador de Bahia, like the Dutch WIC did earlier, only this time he manage to hunt down the guerrilla, by a policy of the carrot and the stick.
And now we are in 1650.
In 1648 the war with Spain ended and soon became even an ally, ( Spanish Netherlands acted as buffer state agains French aggression)
In 1644 already a settlement needed to be made with Portugual, let us asume the Dutch were also able to hold on and to Luanda, Angola.
To be a succes ful colony, the WIC need to get busted or limited in their autority as much as possible. The WIC and the VOC were public owed trade companies, only interested in proffit and as much as return on their stocks. They discourage any settlement by all kind of rules and taxes.
Most likely the immigrants must come from other parts of Europe, since the living standard in the Dutch republic was far higher than any where else in the 17th century in Europe. This could change in the late 18th century when the economy of the Republic declined.
I gues the Brazilians, Catholic, Jew, Protestan and from Protuguese, French, Dutch or German decent would like the tolerant climate Nassau Siegen created. Due to this and the considrabel involvement they would get in running the colonies would give them a good reson to defent the colonie agains Eglish or French attacks.
Most likely it would evolve in a kind of Dutch counter part as the English colonies in North America. I mean like the Virginia's and Carrolina's.
Dutch would be the lingua franca, and administative language.
It would certanly not be a second Cape colony and certanly not an Indonesia, most likely just as Brazil but now under Dutch rule.
 
it could be - if handled well - a rather profitable colony

It certanly will be profitable, like most VOC trading posts and Guyana( Suriname, Essequibo, Demarey) colonies were.
WIC was not so profitable, due to several factors.
- The cost of war was huge
- The charter of the WIC was acopy of the VOC, but the Atlantic trade different than that on the far East and did not suit well for monoply companies like the VOC and WIC, free trade was more suitable for the Atlantic
-Management which made several miscalculations and wrong expectations, most of which were due to the point above mentioned.
 
The issue of settlers is pointless; the North Eastern part of Brazil the Dutch had is today mostly used for ranching; there's that and then there's rainforest in the Amazon; this is no place for a settler colony. The reason Brazil is what it is is because the Portuguese never sent large numbers of colonists there; those only began arriving in the 1920s and even then their numbers paled in comparison to the number of blacks and Amerindians who lived there.

The New Holland economy's going to be based off of sugar plantations, rubber and ranching, which will require slavery and thus mostly likely greater involvement in West Africa; I'd expect to see a Dutch Angola (for similar reasons as to why it became Portuguese IOTL) or a Dutch Gulf of Guinea, or parts thereof.

However, I would raise issue with the OP: the Dutch held the North East but the South, around Rio and Sau Paulo, was firmly pro-Portuguese and would later prove their loyalty to the Crown during the Peninsular War. I'll admit it, their attitudes probably changed in the two hundred odd years between 1648 and 1809 but I think that the landowners (and power-brokers) of that region would raise significant resistance to conquest; given they raised substantial militias against the Dutch IOTL I think they could replicate it in this hypothetical circumstance and, as has already been pointed out, the WIC was a private company and thus the resources of the Dutch state weren't automatically, or even fully, behind it.
 
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After a conquest of Salvador de Bahia, and a truce/peace settlement there is room for a Portoguese Brasil, as what now is Rio de Jainero, Sao Paulo and further south.
Portugal did provide colonist to Brazil in the 16th and 17th century, at an extend it de-populated the motherland, and after a plage epidemic it was an walk over for Philips II to claim the trone of that country.
In the 17th century this places were not as far as developed as Salvador.

The boom for Sao Paulo came later in the 18th and 19th century with the coffe production.

Sure there will be limited colonist. In the 17th, and part of 18th century there was no reason at all for Dutch citizens to leave the Republic. Most likely the majority of settlers will come from the German lands, Scandinavia, France, and Spanish Netherlands.
The economies will be based on platation products, sugar and later coffee and rubber and other crops. The colonist would not only be platation owners but crafts man as well and farmers providing food for the Slaves. Most likely the slave system will be out dated by 1870 and replaced by contract workers from India, Java, an Southern Europe as happened in Brazil and Suriname OTL.
 
The issue of settlers is pointless; the North Eastern part of Brazil the Dutch had is today mostly used for ranching; there's that and then there's rainforest in the Amazon; this is no place for a settler colony. The reason Brazil is what it is is because the Portuguese never sent large numbers of colonists there; those only began arriving in the 1920s and even then their numbers paled in comparison to the number of blacks and Amerindians who lived there.

What are you talking about? The pre-1800 movement of portuguese to brazil was the second largest european population movement to the americas after the British settlement of the Atlantic seaboard and the largest per-capita. At no point were the Africans a majority across the whole colony due to roughly the same initial population movements, and the fecundity of the white settlers vs the negative fertility rate of plantation slaves.

"Brazil is what it is"? By that you mean 60-70% of European ancestry?

You're also talkign out your arse on the whole northeast - the interior is arid, but the Mata Atlantica coast is wet and fertile and suitable for all manner of things (sugar plantations being the most profitable). At the point when a Dutch Brazil is possible, the coast is the only relevant bit.
 
A time line attemt:

WIC launces thier ''great design'' a plan to conquer the sugar rich Portuguese colony of Brazil and the African slave stations.
After initial succes the Dutch are bogged down due to guerrila war of the Brazeriero's and are force the leave Salvadod de Bahia.

1634 Maurits Nassau Siegen is hired to re-vitalize the war and to finally end Portuguese rule in Brazil. IN a several very swift and succesful campaign he succeed. Culmulating in the difficult but finally sucses full siege of Salvador. On the other side of the Atlantic several slave forts are conqered as well, Luanda at Angola and Elmina at the Gold Coast.

Despite the humanist aproach of Nassau siegen the Portuguese revolt in the 1640ties but the Portuguese asked for a peace settlement status ante bellum. This gave the Dutch control over Elmina and Luanda and almost whole Portuguese Brazil ( exept what now is Sao Paulo and Rio)
1649 WIC is in severe financial problems, due the high cost for war and the Stat General decide not to renew the charter of the company under influence of Amsterdam traders who favour free trade on the Atlantic.
1650 The WIC went bust possesion are under direct control of the State General or are sold to the higest bidder, which see the emrge of dozen of smaller trade companies who take over the slave stations.

1652 Nassau Siegen embraced a live as a royal and rule the colony as an enlightened despote, only encountered by colonial counsel and his far away master of the State General of the Dutch Republic.
The 1st Anglo-Dutch war does not effect must on New Holland except it disrupt trade.
The 2nd Anglo-Dutch war saw an ill fated attempt under the Duke of York to capture Recife or Mauritopolis, the administrative centre and biggest and richest city of Dutch Brazil.
1672 Maurits of Nassau Siegen dies. He is burried in a splendid grave in the Large Church of Mauritiopolis. He leaves a widdow, mistresses and a dozen children.
The colony would no be ruled by the State General of the Colony, which is devided in provinces and rule by counsils them selve. The whole manner of rue is almost a coppy of that of the Dutch Republic.
1672 When the Republic is under siege by France, England and Munster it provides monney, men and ships as far as it can. This is the first show of loyalty towards the motherland.
During the wars of the early 18th century it shows at all time their loyalty towards the Republic how ever during the 2nd half of the 18th century it distance it selve from the Republicans in the Netherlands and thier facination with France. When the revolutionar wars reach the Netherlands Dutch Brazil sided with the English, not only for political motvations but also for trade motives.
When Napoleon neters the stage this proved to be a wise decion.
All Dutch over seas posessions will be seized by the English, New Amsterdam will join the USA.
The Cape colony comes under rule of Dutch Brazil and not to the now called Batavian Republic.
1814 All colonies are returned to the Dutch exept Ceylon and the Indian trade forts.
In return for extended self rule (defacto independence)Dutch Brasil returned unde the rule of the new Dutch King William I
During the first halve of the 19th century Dutch Brazil florish as never before. The plantations provide an vast stream of goods, as suggar, coffee, wood, kinine, tea, cacao etc.
Dutch Brasil it self proved to be an excelent market for the textile industry of Ghent and new heavy industry of Walony, which are part of the new Dutch Kingdom.
Even the Dutch are not allowed to trade slaves over seas since 1814 the plantations are still run by slave labor. This cheap labor set a brake on more efficient and modern prodution methods and when slave labor is finaly banned in 1870, economic reality made slave labor obsolete when the world ecomy came in crisses in 1870. Only the plantations who did invest in more productive methods and mechanisation did survive.
It saw as well a large influx f contract workers from Southern India, Java, Sumatra, and later even from the Souh of Italy.
 
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