Fascist Ireland

Was it possible for Eoin O'Duffy and the Blueshirts to take over Ireland? If so what would've been the consequences during the Second World War?
 
I do not think so. I think that De Valera had the great advantage of Legitimacy.

I think the key reasons Ireland remained a Democracy were:

Firstly De Valera did NOT want to be a dictator.

Secondly the particular voting system used in Ireland meant that voters were particularly close to elected representatives.


By the way I feel that De Valera's internal policies were NOT good for the people of Ireland and that the record of Ireland on Human Rights- especially of women and children- was very poor.



As I write this it occurs to me that there might be ONE situation which could have resulted in a strong Fascist attempt at power.


If a much weaker government had been in power in 1939-40 and had tried to take Ireland into the war on Britain's against public opinion I wonder.....
 
One Lives One Dies

Derek,

Let me raise two additional possibilties:

De Valera is executed by Maxwell, despite his being born in the US.

Micheal Collins is not killed during the Civil War.

Does either (or both together) of these give O'Duffy a chance to become the Green Duce?

I am glad you recognize that democracy does not always produce perfect policies.
 
A Fascist Ireland

The Irisih Blueshirts today are not considered today as a real facsists party. The Blueshirts were founded in 1933 Eoin O'Duffy, former Irish civil servant. Let's say that in TTL, O'Duffy based his Irisih Independence Party on the Italian facisist party. In August of that same year, he planned a march on Dublin, similar to Mussolini's March on Rome.

O'Duffy moves on Dublin, and seizes control of the government, with help from the army. O'Duffy, seen as an incompetent leader, turns out to be an extremley competent, shrewd, and caluclating man. His Blueshirts-now named the grayshirts, and wearing gray shirts-begin prowling the countryside for enemies of the state.

In 1934, Hitler apporached O'Duffy with an alliance. Ireland will become an ally of Germany, and help in her development of tanks and aricraft. In exchange, Ireland will be protected, and naval assistance will be provided. To show has serious he was, Hitler presented O'Duffy with the uncompleted hull of a Deutchland-class panzerschiffe, to be called the Michael Collins.

O'Duffy agreed at once. Ireland began development of new aircraft and tanks for itself and Germany, while work on the Michael Collins was steady. She was commisioned in 1936.

In Spain, the Spanish Civil War broke out in 1937. O'Duffy orgainzed several units of infnatry, armor, and aircraft, along with the Michael Collins. The Michael Collins sunk the Royalist battleship Jamie I off the coast of Spain.

Britian, while all this happened, began to worry. With a pro-German government in Irleand, along with a navy equiped with a pocket battleship (with two more on the way) and a powerful army, Britian feared that Ireland could overrun Northern Ireland.

The Irish Expeditionary Force returned on May 3rd, 1939 after helping Fransico Franco win the Spanish Civil War. The Irish Navy now had two more capital ships (battlecruisers), the Arthur Griffith and the Dublin. The Irish Army was powerful and mechanized, and the Irish Air Force was probally one of the most powerful air arms in the world. And in late 1939, this military capaiblity would be put to the test.
 
The Irish Army of the 30's consisted of three guys called Shamus and their pet goat King Billie, finding the cash to pay for the running of a pocket battleship plus battlecruisers enough manpower to keep the things operational is going to be pretty hard considering the country has a population of about 2 million
 
The government of the Irish Free State under de Valera was pretty close to being pro-Nazi. It even ran to having a 'secret police' who kept tabs on certain undesirables - specifically people who ran for socialist (or in Irsh terms 'godless communist') parties.

Certainly, in its desire to be strictly neutral it contributed to a large number of allied deaths - mostly due to its refusal to allow the ports of southern and western Ireland to be used in the battle of the Atlantic. There were even official complaints about the basing of US troops in Northern Ireland.

Against which, it should be remembered that a large number of Irish volunteers fought for the Allies. Very few Irish were pro-Nazi and German agents sent to Ireland were interned. Also, the British never bombed Dublin - the Germans did (whether by accident -most likely- or by some evil British design - speculative- has never been proved. Choose your prejudice)

As far as the alternate history bit goes. The Free State was almost totally dependent on the UK for fuel and most industrial materials, especially after the outbreak of war. Under those circumstances I fail to see where the resources for these ships and planes come from - I don't think the Germans would divert resources to Ireland. In OTL German naval production was very low most of the steel etc. going to the Army and Luftwaffe.

Irish bases, however, would have been valuable to Hitler - right until the moment the British invaded - presumably invited in by anti-Nazi elements.
 
Looks Familiar

I raised the prospect of Fascist Ireland before (during the overlap between Old Board and New Board IIRC). Only Derek responded and he was fairly persuasive about De Valera being able to outwit O'Duffy. He never answered a question I posed about whether a dead De Valera and/or live Michael Collins might give the Blueshirts a window of opportunity.

Your propensity for SuperFleet is showing itself again. IRN would probably have one maybe 2 light cruisers, 2-3 coastal defense ships, 16-20 light destroyers, and equal number of torpedo boats and some S-boats and coastal U-Boats.

I am toying with Fascist Ireland for the Unicorn TL though haven't decided much beyond Pesident Pearse.

TOm
 
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The Sandman

Banned
The rest of the Irish government, horrified by De Valera's apparent slide into utter madness, sends him on a long vacation and sues for peace before the ink dries on the declaration of war.
 

Hapsburg

Banned
Highlander said:
What if Ireland declared it's support for the Axis at the beginning of WWII?
Britains kicks their ass and re-annexes it, not willing to any chances in the future.
 
It would have to in order to become plausible.

Maybe the Axis does better than in OTL, and expands to include special-status 'junior members', such as Spain, who don't actually do any fighting besides sending expeditionary forces, and are mostly there for economic/base-providing reasons.
 
EvolvedSaurian said:
Seems like every single European country had a nationalist, fascist or Nazi movement at this point.

Makes ya think, doesn't it?

All of them had a Communist party as well. And social democrats, conservatives, nudists, pretty much anything you can think of.
 
There were pro Nazi elements in the Free State but they were not influentual. In OTL Ireland's neutrality was very biased to Britain. EG NOT having a Foriegn enlistment act meant that there were more people from the South than the North fighting for Britain.

Ireland going for the AXIS requires an earlier POD or ASB's- unless Britain actually treated Ireland like Russia treated Finland.
 
In case of a German victory, they would have been able to make a favorable deal, I am sure. But why taking a risk when neutrality is the best solution?

What I can say, just a little anecdote: I once heard the story of a German bomber pilot who was flying between Ireland and Great Britain; and he saw on the Irish side an arrow made of burning barrels, pointing precisely in the direction of nearby English cities.
 
Ruthlesstyrant said:
In case of a German victory, they would have been able to make a favorable deal, I am sure. But why taking a risk when neutrality is the best solution?

What I can say, just a little anecdote: I once heard the story of a German bomber pilot who was flying between Ireland and Great Britain; and he saw on the Irish side an arrow made of burning barrels, pointing precisely in the direction of nearby English cities.

This doesn't sound like anything Ive heard of Ireland during WW2, The Irish Interning German Pilots and Sailors (for the whole war), but Secretly Dropped off the British ones at the Ulster Border, The Irish Government Giving the UK, Advanced weather Reports and The Amount of Irish Volunteers including some of my family who Fought against Germany...

"During the war an estimated 70,000 citizens of neutral Ireland served in the British armed forces, together with 50,000 or so from Northern Ireland."
 
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OperationGreen said:
This doesn't sound like anything Ive heard of Ireland during WW2, The Irish Interning German Pilots and Sailors (for the whole war), but Secretly Dropped off the British ones at the Ulster Border, The Irish Government Giving the UK, Advanced weather Reports and The Amount of Irish Volunteers including some of my family who Fought against Germany...

"During the war an estimated 70,000 citizens of neutral Ireland served in the British armed forces, together with 50,000 or so from Northern Ireland."

Could it have been he saw some burning barrels and thought it directed him to a British city? Actually it was pointing away from them.:D Especially considering that any German bombers getting within sight of Ireland would probably be bombing Ulster. While there are southern Irish who hate Britain even they wouldn't want inaccurate night-time bombing which might equally well hit the northern Catholics.

Steve
 
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