An Earlier World War II

How could an earlier World War II come around, say 1937 of'38? At first, I want it to be a strictly Soviet-German War, then spread to the rest of the World. How could somehting like this affect the Pacific War?

Another thing, I want Germany somehow getting the bomb first, and using either heavy bombers or A4 or more advanced missiles, to deliver the bomb to several key Allied cities and armies ending the war in German favor.

One last thing. I also want the Me 262 in production faster, giving the Germans an edge in combat. Other jets I want to see in the air Gotha Go 229 (Horton Ho X), a version of the Junkers Ground Attack Aircraft, the Arado E.555 series, and a Focke-Wulf Ta 183.
 
One comment. In order for Nazi Germany to develop the atomic bomb, two things have to happen: 1) Nazi Germany cannot be run by the Nazi Party. Jewish scientists who had fled Germany during the early 1930s are the very reason that the United States developed the nuclear bomb before Germany. In order for these German, Jewish scientists to build an atomic bomb for Germany, the Nazi Party cannot be in charge. 2) You need the United States to stay out of the war. The Germans simply did not have access to the minerals and resources needed to construct the bomb. The US, on the other hand, had access to those resources.
 
David S Poepoe said:
Well, how about it? Why don't you post an alternate timeline and we'll take a look at it.

I have an idea on how this ATL to go, but no real idea on how it should start. And the Germans getting the bomb first, maybe the Nazis realized that the Jewish scientist were important first, and "persude" them to stay in Germany and work on the bomb.
 
There were lots of reasons for Germans to support the aggressive posture of the Nazi's, have a different nationaistic group come into power that isn't as anti-semetic.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Me

I've written the beginning of a novel which has some of these themes. The POD is in Spring 1918 Foch is killed in the car crash that seriously injured him. OTL Foch's presence was vital to preventing Haig and Petain from withdrawing in different directions faced with the Kaiserschlacht. In the ATL they do withdraw and the German armies surge forward. The war lasts longer and the defeat of Germany is more complete with an Allied invasion of the empire. There is no stab in the back myth, no collapse due to internal dispute but a much more definitive military defeat. I also got Hitler and Himmler killed in action (prolong the war and Himmler's Bavarian reserve unit would complete training and be thrown into action).

The Germany that swings to the right in the economic gloom of the late 1920s is led by more traditional rightwing forces - military heroes (I used Von Lettow Vorbeck as one), aristocrats and the like. The militaristic Germany that emerges in the early 1930s is not the anti-Semitic Nazis, but an authoritarian regime under a charismatic leader. Etc

So, Germany works on the nuclear bomb etc

As a note, it is one theory that Heissenberg knew what he was doing wrong but simply did not want the Nazis to get the bomb so continued to work to the wrong plan... If you don't want to change to much, its possible that Nazi Germany itself could get one or two working nukes if you have someone of the same genius as Heissenberg but less concerned with morals

Grey Wolf


Mikey said:
How could an earlier World War II come around, say 1937 of'38? At first, I want it to be a strictly Soviet-German War, then spread to the rest of the World. How could somehting like this affect the Pacific War?

Another thing, I want Germany somehow getting the bomb first, and using either heavy bombers or A4 or more advanced missiles, to deliver the bomb to several key Allied cities and armies ending the war in German favor.

One last thing. I also want the Me 262 in production faster, giving the Germans an edge in combat. Other jets I want to see in the air Gotha Go 229 (Horton Ho X), a version of the Junkers Ground Attack Aircraft, the Arado E.555 series, and a Focke-Wulf Ta 183.
 
Heissenberg--no need to replace him

Even if Heissenberg deliberately kept Germany back in its bomb project, you wouldn't need to replace him, you could cause something to change his attitudes. Perhaps during the occupation, he sees some harsh British or French tactics, and his patriotism becomes a bit stronger, so he does work hard on finding a way to keep the oppressors at bay. Put some more convincing people in charge of dealing with the scientists, and you're in business.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
The problem here as I see it is how to draw the US into the war. Given a less anti-semitic regime FDR is on much shakier ground in making a moral condemnation of the Germans vis-a-vis their enemies.
Many believed the only reason that the non-Germans let Germany get away with so much before WWII was because the Nazis were seen as a counterweight to the Communists.

Even before Russian involvement, many in the US were not without sympathy for Germany's plight after Versailles and they understood and agreed with the nationalistic/historical arguments that Hitler put forward to claim Czech/Poland, the anti-semitism was the reason for their opposition. Take it away and you have another European argument, with no reason for an isolationist America to get involved. Once the Russians are in the picture then US interests are actually served by the German cause more than any other. Could the US pressure France and Britain into an alliance to crush communism?

The Pacific war is along the same lines but a little different. Seeing Germany after Russia then Japan might just forego its further plans for China in favor of easier pickings a little north. The US conversely, might view its need for oil from SE Asia with more sympathy. Having the US wink at the Rape of Nanking etc is not realistic but perhaps the Japanese could offer reparations etc.

Now if you leave the US and anti-semitism out then Einstein could possibly have given Germany a bomb by 1943, or maybe even earlier if the US actually helps. Certainly, American factories would have no difficulty making thousands of jets following German designs.
 
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The US enters the war after Japan hits Pearl Harbor. As in OTL, the US declares war on Japan, and the germans respond by declaring war on the US.

If this doesn't work, have public opinion turn against the germans after a U-boat sinks a cruise ship filled with English Women and Children on their way to Canada for safety. There are several nearby US ships, one of which has a Life Magazine photographer and film crew on board to follow several movie stars in their daily lives. While the ships are able to save many of these innocents, the filmed images of small children struggling in the water is too much even for isolationist america.
 
Mikey, you would almost need ASBs to get Nazis to keep Jewish scientists. Their anti-senitism was so extreme they crippled the war effort, if necessary, to pursue it. They had a kooky "science" that made the Weekly World News look sensible, as well. I'm surprised they accomplished what they did.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Heissenberg and Himmler

tom said:
Mikey, you would almost need ASBs to get Nazis to keep Jewish scientists. Their anti-senitism was so extreme they crippled the war effort, if necessary, to pursue it. They had a kooky "science" that made the Weekly World News look sensible, as well. I'm surprised they accomplished what they did.

I remember reading about the elder Heissenberg and Himmlers, of when Heissenberg was in trouble for 'Jewish Science' his parents contacted Himmler's parents and Himmler got the SS to lay off Heissenberg

Grey Wolf
 
Easy in regards to that, no compromise with regards to Czecholovakia. Poland is a pro-axis neutral, the Soviet Union an ally of Czechoslovakia, and the rest falls into place. Germany was in a better tactical position in 1938, but in the long run, the fact that Germany doesn't take the Skoda works and the Czech army intact will mean that Germany has to make up those 800 tanks and manufacturing facilities somehow.
 
You may be interested in 'Shattered World' - an alternate WWII starting with a Soviet invasion of Poland in 1937. It is now up to June 10th 1948 with the Soviets having just re-entered the war, determined to retake the Ukraine, the Caucasus and the Siberian Pacific ports.

Some points:

  • The United States is the only power with the Bomb and is currently fighting Japan only, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in July 1946.
  • Germany has a real Atomic Bomb project, not just a heavy water program. However, the British project, helped by the Americans, is about a year ahead.
  • The Germans have the Me-275 (basically a refined Me-262) and the Ta-190b 'Predator' (similar class to the MiG-17) fighter aircraft, while the British have Meteors and Vampires. The United States is about to bring its first jets into service - they are equivalent to the OTL F-86. The Soviets have no jets.
  • British forces are currently fighting in North Africa and Iraq - a Nazi ally in this timeline. Bombing of Germany is pure suicide due to sophisticated night fighters and radar-guided flak - an attempt to bomb Berlin resulted in 70% losses.
  • The Tiger tank was never developed, instead the Pz MkIV was succeeded by the Cougar (basically a Panther) and the Cougar II (similar to a Leopard I, except the electronics)
  • The Japanese have occupied coastal Siberia. Due to a worse Pearl Harbor attack, the United States has much larger forces on the Asian mainland, instead of in the Pacific. The Philippines are better prepared and do not fall to the Japanese.

See http://www.geocities.com/cypher_zzz/shattered/shattered.htm
 
George Carty said:
You may be interested in 'Shattered World' - an alternate WWII starting with a Soviet invasion of Poland in 1937. It is now up to June 10th 1948 with the Soviets having just re-entered the war, determined to retake the Ukraine, the Caucasus and the Siberian Pacific ports.

Yes, I've read 'Shattered World'. That is were I got my idea for this earlier, and longer WW 2. I'm thinking about using maybe a few things (such as a Persian Civil War), but most of the stuff I'll have will be my own.
 
Spanish Civil War- earlier WWII

Another possibility- WI an earlier WWII commenced somehow as a result of German and Soviet direct military involvement against each other during the Spanish CW ?
 
I like the idea of a proxy war getting out of hand in spain and maybe spreading out into other parts of North Africa and Europe.

It would move the war ahead in time, and the initial sides set (Germany vs. Russia). If Russia determined (for internal reasons) to send more menand supplies to assist the republican forces, it could easily have blown up.

Additionally, if it spilled out into Europe, I can actually see a scenario where France enters the war on Germany's side.
 
WWII in 1936

Tukhachevsky shoots Stalin and invades Eastern Europe, involving Germany in the war with the support of the Allied nations, including Norway (for heavy water) and Belgium, Canada, Australia, and Czechoslovakia (for Uranium).
Russia conquers Eastern Europe and is held on the Vistula-San by the German, Polish, and French armies, and on the Danube by the Balkan armies, with the area in between held by the Austrians, Czechoslovakians, and Hungarians.
The Depression ends when the Republicans allow Roosevelt to deficit spend for rearmament. The US takes out Japan when the navy is twice it's prewar size and four times bigger than Japan's. Lots of carriers and submarines.
 
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