AH Challenge: Make Burgundy a colonial power

The "No France" made me think, and I came up with this little challange; come up with a plausible scenario (and/or timeline) where Burgundy survives and becomes a colonial power; preferrably in North America and/or the Carribean, Indonesia/Indochina, and later on in the 19th century, Africa. What would be the effects, enormous as they must be I can imagine?
 

Valamyr

Banned
If Charles the Bold doesnt die heirless, Austria never inherits Burgundy, and Burgundy therefore manages to hold on to all Benelux, Burgundy proper, Franche-Compté, and to have a land bridge between it all, lets say it also manages to get Lorthighen.

So basically, youd have a pretty solid country covering north-eastern france, luxemburg, belgium and the netherlands. Working from there is pretty easy. Obviously, that country would always have to be wary of wars, as it would stand as a buffer between hostile France and a lukewarm HRE.

It would need at the same time to develop the trade and naval traits that made Netherlands successful in OTL. Its logical ally would probably be England. Spain's decline in TTL would be slower, without all the troubles brought by a rebellious netherlands.

Starting earlier than Netherlands in OTL, and later incorportating alot of portugeuse colonies as in OTL, Burgundy could build a pretty strong empire. The peak of the Empire would be the 18th century, when England owns Hannover (thus securing Burgundy's eastern border). Before that, obviously, there would be huge changes, like, no Westphalia, and probably no Germano-French wars, unless Burgundy picks a side.

Nontheless, Burgundy was traditionally lukewarm to the HRE (Though she was a member), so other conflicts would probably still bring about the decline of whatever central authority exists in Germany throuought the Renaissance.

As for modern times, lets say Burgundy survives and consolidate until the era of revolutions. There, it begins a slow colonial and commercial decline. The French revolution can still happen, though it could as well not, but lets say it does. The victorious armies of France allows the realisation of an old french imperial dream; fusion with Burgundy, to break England's might on the continent. However, later misfortunes in the war push back France to its pre-war boundaries.

Burgundy is reborn, though changed forever by the French civil laws and a newfound desire for the ideals of the french revolution. Though its colonial empire is largely lost, Burgundy industrialize very fast, just one step behind England, propelling it to world class power. When, later this century, Prussians brings war to Burgundy, this industrial might fails to translate adequately on the battlefield however, and a behemoth united Germany appears on Burgundy's border. Worse: the punishment for refusing to join this german union, for Burgundy, is a serious loss of territory in the north and the east. The German Kaiser is crowned in the High Palace at Aix-la-Chapelle.

This humiliation brings Burgundy much closer to France. Thirty years later, they get their revenge after a long bloody war that leaves Europe in ruins. France, Burgondy, England and the Ottoman Empire finally defeats Germany, Austria and Russia. Vengeful Burgundy now extends to the Rhine.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
As one of the best timelines for the survival of Burgundy would be the survival of a strong Valois line, you may end up with NO FRANCE. Burgundy plus England, an independent Brittany (English ally-cum-client) and an independent Navarre. In the South, perhaps France fractures along lines similar to those seen in Italy.

This could give the HRE a renewed foothold into N Italy, and maybe Switzerland and Provence. Whilst this provides a longer border for Burgundy to defend, it prevents the re-establishment of France, and thus in a way secures Burgundy's rear. They would be fighting the emperor for border lands, rather than for their existence - at least most of the time.

The impetus for colonies might be delayed a century or so in detail - after all England is concerned with its European holdings, and Burgundy with its fluctuating borders.

Grey Wolf
 
This isn't too far fetched with the 'best' part of Burgundy being the Netherlands.
It could come about quite easily too, as said their leader died heirless.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
As one of the best timelines for the survival of Burgundy would be the survival of a strong Valois line, you may end up with NO FRANCE. Burgundy plus England, an independent Brittany (English ally-cum-client) and an independent Navarre. In the South, perhaps France fractures along lines similar to those seen in Italy.

Perhaps, though I think you underestimate the Swiss and Aragon.

This could give the HRE a renewed foothold into N Italy,

Say what? Northern Italy was part of the Holy Roman Empire already....

and maybe Switzerland and Provence.

Possibly. The Arelate was given to France in the 14th century, but yes, it could be transferred back. I'd expect Provence to pursue its own policy, maybe tied to Savoy, as being more likely.

Whilst this provides a longer border for Burgundy to defend, it prevents the re-establishment of France, and thus in a way secures Burgundy's rear. They would be fighting the emperor for border lands, rather than for their existence - at least most of the time.

Possibly. But it seems to me that the French/English Empire is too big, and just ripe for some sort of civil war.

The impetus for colonies might be delayed a century or so in detail - after all England is concerned with its European holdings, and Burgundy with its fluctuating borders.

I don't buy this part, sorry. England owns the great French atlantic ports, and France showed an interest in colonization in the 16th century. Burgundy rules the low countries, which are valuable because of trade.

And Charles the Bold had portuguese ancestors.
 
How will the continued existence of Burgundy affect the Reformation? That could have all sorts of interesting effects. After all, it was the entry of Catholic France on the side of the Protestants (to screw over the House of Hapsburg) that tipped the balance, I think.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Oh well, I'll happily admit ignorance

Regarding N Italy I was under the impression that in this period the emperor had no effective control there ?

Still, its way outside what I know I know now, so I could well be wrong

Comes of commenting on half-remembered facts in threads I should probably keep well clear of

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Valamyr

Banned
Dont be too quick to admit ignorance, for you are right.

Faeelin, ever since Barbarossa's alpine campaigns, the HRE's hold on Italy was on the paper only.

Its what Grey Wolf meant i believe.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Valamyr said:
Dont be too quick to admit ignorance, for you are right.

Faeelin, ever since Barbarossa's alpine campaigns, the HRE's hold on Italy was on the paper only.

Its what Grey Wolf meant i believe.

The HRE's hold on much of Germany was on paper only, but it was still there.
 
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