My Tory America TL and "The Nine Nations of America"

http://www.harpercollege.edu/~mhealy/g101ilec/namer/nac/nacnine/na9intro/nacninfr.htm

I have never read The Nine Nations of America but someone just recommended it to me after seeing my British North America TL. He didn't accuse me outright of plagiarism, but did see remarkable similarities to the book:

New England = New England
Pennsylvania ~ The Foundary
Canada ~ Quebec
Lacustria ~ The Breadbasket
Oregon ~ Ecotopia
West Indies ~ The Islands

Of course, there are the differences:

Virginia, Florida, Appalachia ~ Dixie
The Empire of Mexico reaches almost to Wyoming (thanks to Dominguez and Escalante)
Louisiana could be a Cajun Texas, but it's a lot more than that, too...
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
chrispi said:
http://www.harpercollege.edu/~mhealy/g101ilec/namer/nac/nacnine/na9intro/nacninfr.htm

I have never read The Nine Nations of America but someone just recommended it to me after seeing my British North America TL. He didn't accuse me outright of plagiarism, but did see remarkable similarities to the book:

New England = New England
Pennsylvania ~ The Foundary
Canada ~ Quebec
Lacustria ~ The Breadbasket
Oregon ~ Ecotopia
West Indies ~ The Islands

Of course, there are the differences:

Virginia, Florida, Appalachia ~ Dixie
The Empire of Mexico reaches almost to Wyoming (thanks to Dominguez and Escalante)
Louisiana could be a Cajun Texas, but it's a lot more than that, too...

Who are Dominguez and Escalante ? How do they ensure that the original Mexican-claimed territories remain Mexican in the face of Westward expansion from whichever independent American states exist ?

Grey Wolf
 
Having read "Nine Nations" years ago, I think when I was in high school, I think you needn't worry about plagarism. "Nine Nations" made an interesting read but did not, I think, say much that isn't obvious to anyone who spends alot of time in different regions of the U.S., or who is familiar with the U.S. -- and in fact makes a few glaring generalizations (like lumping conservative rural eastern Oregon & Washington with liberal, green, urbanized western Oregon & Washington in his "Ecotopia").
 
Sierrajeff said:
Having read "Nine Nations" years ago, I think when I was in high school, I think you needn't worry about plagarism. "Nine Nations" made an interesting read but did not, I think, say much that isn't obvious to anyone who spends alot of time in different regions of the U.S., or who is familiar with the U.S. -- and in fact makes a few glaring generalizations (like lumping conservative rural eastern Oregon & Washington with liberal, green, urbanized western Oregon & Washington in his "Ecotopia").

I believe that, while western Oregon and Washington are a part of Ecotopia, eastern Oregon and Washington are a part of the Empty Quarter...
 
Grey Wolf said:
Who are Dominguez and Escalante ? How do they ensure that the original Mexican-claimed territories remain Mexican in the face of Westward expansion from whichever independent American states exist ?

Grey Wolf

Silvestre Velez de Escalante and Francisco Antanasio Dominguez were two Franciscan friars who left from Santa Fe in July 1776 to find a northern route connecting New Mexico with Monterrey, California (and thus avoid the Apaches.) They reached as far north as the Uintah Basin in Utah but faced trouble in the Great Basin and were forced to turn back. They reported a desolate, hostile, unwelcoming, high red desert. This makes the Southwest the Empty Quarter of North America.

In my timeline, Britain's outlawing of slavery in trans-Appalachia early on (1807) kept it to the Dominions of Virginia and Florida, where by 1829 it withered and died under a policy of manumission through compensation (financed in part from the northern dominions and Britain itself.)

This means that, unlike OTL, there is no pressure from wealthy planters to expand slavery to the Southwest. Furthermore, there is no overarching Federal Government in TTL, just independent Dominions within the British Empire, and no Senate wherein there must be a free against slave balance to be preserved.

In London's eyes, the American Southwest may as well be the moon, for it's just as dry. Northern California, on the other hand, they deem their New Albion and annex it to Oregon in short order, and a good thing too, with its Motherlode discovered a few years later! The only imperial need London has is getting the main land route from Sacramento to the Great Lakes: in other words, I-80.

Louisiana has expansionist ideas of course, but could hardly do anything about them with its small population. Its historical claim cut off Oregon from the rest of British North America, so that was ceded to Britain with the Quarantine Treaty, establishing 40 North from the Missouri to the Divide as the border between Louisiana and Lacustria. With regard to Mexico it could do little, especially when Spain is at peace with Britain, apart from "swindling" the headwaters of the Colorado River high up in the Louisiana Alps. A Louisiana expedition was sent into the Yampa valley, only to find the Union Jack fluttering over Ft. Yampa (~Hayden, CO). The final borders in the west were settled, near International Springs, Oregon.

So the short answer to your question is that the Southwest remains Mexican mainly through disinterest.
 
Sierrajeff said:
Having read "Nine Nations" years ago, I think when I was in high school, I think you needn't worry about plagarism. "Nine Nations" made an interesting read but did not, I think, say much that isn't obvious to anyone who spends alot of time in different regions of the U.S., or who is familiar with the U.S. -- and in fact makes a few glaring generalizations (like lumping conservative rural eastern Oregon & Washington with liberal, green, urbanized western Oregon & Washington in his "Ecotopia").

Another generalization that stuck in my craw was "Dixie." The influence of the Civil War is exaggerated: posh tidewater Virginians have little in common with unshod Appalachian hillbillies. They have every right to their own regions as the North.
 
Yes I always get strange looks, from Southerns and Northerns alike, when I say I grew up "in the South, in West Virginia"! That state is a particularly unusual example; to a resident of Tidewater or the Gulf Coast it's certainly the North; to a New England Yankee it's the South. And while Wheeling may be practically a suburb of Pittsburgh, I happened to grow up 10 miles from the Virginia border, in a town with a statute "In Memory of Our Confederate Dead". (The dead Union troops were apparently dumped over a cliff after a battle; the Rebs buried in a cross-shaped grave on a hillside.) So it's the South to me!
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
West Virginia - an odd one, sort of like Kentucky or Missouri. If the Confederacy had been independent and won then it would be the Northern South, but as it wasn't and these areas clove to the Union is it not the Southern North ?

Grey Wolf
 
Oh, yeah, I also wanted to get rid of North Carolina and South Carolina from my TL (bloody Tarholes and bloody Cocks :D ) so I had tobacco-rich NC annexed to the tobacco-rich Dominion of Virginia, and the cotton-rich SC annexed to the cotton-rich Dominion of Florida (Georgia).
 
Hmm..somehow I dont see NC's backcountry dirt farmers getting along well with VA's Tidewater aristocrats either, but maybe thats just me.

MK in NC
 
MK5 said:
Hmm..somehow I dont see NC's backcountry dirt farmers getting along well with VA's Tidewater aristocrats either, but maybe thats just me.

MK in NC
Remember, we're talking about 18th century colonial America and Virginia far outnumbered North Carolina then. Any administrator from London looking to consolidate the disparate colonies into more viable countries will keep this in mind--that, and Virginia's history.
 
True, but you also have to take NC's history into account. The inhabitants of the piedmont and mountain regions had very little in common with the coastal planters, and resented their control of the colonial government. So much so that Gov.tryon had to call out the militia in 1774 and put down their rebellion at Alamance Creek. If the Regulators (as they called themselves) didn't like the local aristo's I don't think they'll get along any better with a planter dominated government in faraway Williamsburg.
I'm not saying such a consolidation wouldn't happen; it does make sense. It just wouldn't go over very well in some parts of the colony.
 
MK5 said:
True, but you also have to take NC's history into account. The inhabitants of the piedmont and mountain regions had very little in common with the coastal planters, and resented their control of the colonial government. So much so that Gov.tryon had to call out the militia in 1774 and put down their rebellion at Alamance Creek. If the Regulators (as they called themselves) didn't like the local aristo's I don't think they'll get along any better with a planter dominated government in faraway Williamsburg.
I'm not saying such a consolidation wouldn't happen; it does make sense. It just wouldn't go over very well in some parts of the colony.

I agree with MK5's assessment, being from NC myself. NC was culturally quite different to VA.
 
One must also keep in mind that the settlers of the Shenadoah are also not too keen to be dictated by Williamsburg, but there they are. So too will the Tarheels be assimilated.

Consolidation may be disliked by the Colonists, but they did lose the Revolution, after all. Any objections will fall deaf on Parliament's ears. (You could be ruled by Williamsburg, or by London directly.)

New York, for instance, is a Tory counterweight to rebellious Boston, an important fact to consider when creating the New England House of Commons. This will be disliked intensely by the Adamses, but effective independence will outweigh this.
 
Ah, but the Regulators were Loyalist in OTL, and rose up again against the Tidewater rebels. Why punish loyal subjects? Maybe they won at Moore's Creek in '76 and captured Wilmington as a base for the fleet.
 
The Rebels have long since reaffirmed their loyalty, or fled to Louisiana. One of the reasons for colonial consolidation in preparation for the British North America Act is precisely because the rebel tidewater governments in the colonies lost, and must therefore be dissolved and rearranged in preparation for Dominion.

Britain at this time has no qualms about uniting her possessions. Union between Britain and Ireland is coming, union of the disparate colonies into more regional dominions, countries even, follows this logic.
 
Beck Reilly said:
Chrispi, is your timeline available anywhere online?

Here's a ROUGH timeline:

25 Dec 1776: Washington and the Continental Army are captured at Trenton by the Hessians.

1777: Howe moves the bulk of his forces to the right bank of the Hudson. Burgoyne stays in Canada. New England rebels attack Howe but are defeated at West Point. Loyalist militias in the South take control, with Cornwallis' backing. Colonial governments are dissolved, the Continental Congress scatters to the four winds.

1778-1780: Parliament debates what to do with the Americans: Punishment or reconciliation? Lord North favors re-arrangment of the colonies; hard-core Tories favor punative taxes and restrictions while the Whigs favor complete independence from Britain. At first, North's agenda is passed and the colonies are re-arranged into military districts: New England, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Florida. The punitive impulse stops there, however. The Tories cannot pass the rest of their new Intolerable Acts. The Whigs take this as a sign of weakness and gain the majority of the Commons. North is forced out. Charles Fox becomes PM.

1780s: John Adams is in Holland, Thomas Jefferson is in France. Most staunch Rebels, however, are in Spanish Louisiana. The British Parliament passes the Amnesty Act, allowing reconciliation with the Rebels.

1790s: Pitt the Younger becomes PM, designs to reform the 13 Colonies into five fully self-governing Dominions within the Empire. Controversy rages in America but revolution is mooted. British control at this point includes Florida and Transappalachia as well as Canada and the Thirteen.

Having not financed the American Revolution, the French are spared from their own--at least temporarily; likewise Holland avoids fiscal crisis. These countries re-direct their energies into more extensive colonization--and shipping malcontents to the other end of the world, particularly Australia and New Zealand (Thomas Paine settles in the Dutch settlement of Flushing (Auckland) in the North Island while Georges Danton founds an eponymous colony near our Nelson.)


1800s: On July 1, 1801, the British North America Act takes effect and four new nations are established:

* New England (east of the Hudson, including NYC)
* Pennsylvania (west of the Hudson, i.e. most of upstate NY, NJ, Del and Md.)
* Virginia (and North Carolina)
* Florida (Georgia and South Carolina)


The Dominion of the West Indies is created in separate legislation two years later. The BNA is amended in 1806 and the Dominion of Canada is formed.

Europe is aflame. The French, British, Spanish and Prussians are at each other's throat in what will be called the Ten Years' War. Americans send only a token force in Britain's aid and even that is naval. One of the consequences of this is that the Republic of Louisiana (one of whose founders is Thomas Jefferson) is formed, a buffer state between two hostile empires.


In 1807, the British Parliament outlaws slavery in all crown colonies but cannot outlaw slavery in the Dominions. But to vex the Colonials, the British Parliament separates each Dominion by what is called a King's Chain, a strip of land 66 ft wide total atop the border, as Crown land.

1810s: The King's Chain Rebellion starts in Virginia after John Marshall of the Crown Court of Richmond finds that Dory Jones, a slave from Florida, crossed the King's Chain before entering Virginia, and thus stepped into British territory, where slavery is illegal. Riots ensue, Marshall (not to mention Dory Jones) hide from the lynch mobs. The Virginia and Florida Parliaments claim the King's Chain and set up a possible war with Britain.

The King's Chain Rebellion sends shockwaves through the rest of the Dominions and even the Imperial Parliament itself. Mobs from Virginia and Florida "dismiss" HM Customs from controlling the border and the Dominion Parliaments form a customs union. The Court of Appeal in Virginia reverses Marshall's original ruling and Dory Jones is legally a slave again--although he fled to Pennsylvania in the meanwhile, where he is legally free. Reprecussions are felt in Appalachia, where slavery is illegal and there is much settlement from Virginia and Florida--the Wilberforce Act is difficult to enforce.

Attempts to pass legislation to control the rebellion fail in the British Parliament, and the Americans win a great victory when the Jones v. Rex appeal is dismissed in the Privy Council in London.

1814: Lord Liverpool, Prime Minister of Great Britain, sends middle-class settlers from England's north-west on ships to colonize the north-west of North America: Oregon. After rounding the Horn the colonists build a new settlement at the junction of the Oregon (Columbia) and Dee (Willamette) rivers that they named, unsurprisingly, Liverpool.

Not to be outdone, in 1816 the Whig PM of New England, John Quincy Adams, facing the Year Without a Summer, also sends a colonial party to Oregon. Their settlement, Quincy (Tacoma) lies at the feet of Mt. Vancouver (Rainier.) Further settlements are made by the Scots (Dunedin, on the Fraser river) and the Welsh (Carlisle on Vancouver Island.) Further settlements are made by the Scots (Dunedin, on the Fraser river) and the Welsh (Carlisle on Vancouver Island.)

1820:
Slavery is legal in Virginia and Florida, but illegal in Appalachia, a crown colony. The last slaves in the "North" (Penn, NE, and Canada) are manumitted and Manumission Acts are passed in Virginia and Florida as well.

In the 1820s slavery is a dying institution, even in the South and the West Indies. The failure of slave power to expand into the west (the free British crown colony of Appalachia) ensures the pernicious institution's doom. Manumission acts are passed in these Dominions, paying slave owners for the slaves' freedom, thus avoiding an economic collapse. Some former slave owners become factory owners, though most become sharecroppers. The fertile fields of the Mississippi Delta are tilled by free blacks.

More to come...
 
Errata: Mt. Rainier will remain Mt. Rainier ATL, as Capt. Vancouver named it after his patron and friend, R. Adm. Peter Rainier.
The colonists to Liverpool were more of a cross-section of society, substantially middle-class, yes, but a greater portion were the ATL equivalent of Luddites. This contributes to the legendary Oregan love/hate relationship with technology, as I will explain later. Canada will remain a Crown Colony for a longer while, at least until the Third Amendment of the British North America Act (1851.)
 
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