Give me a Harem !

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
What European tradition (short of conquest by the Ottoman Empire or other Islamic polity) would make for Harems and Concubines in the establishment of a Western European noble at the start of the twentieth century ? I would prefer the answer to emerge from out of pre-existing traditions, rather than outside conquest such as by the Mongols or other steppe people. Is there anything in Celtic set-ups which could be used ? Pre-Christian traditions within the Roman Empire that could develop that way ?

Thanks
Grey Wolf
(lookig forward to my Harem)
 

Otis Tarda

Venetian and Byzantinian tradition. IIRC (IM NOT SURE ABOUT IT!!!) Ottomans took ideas of harems from Bizantium, not from Arabic Muslims.

And, I've read somewhere that "harems" (meaning one wife + concubines or female slaves) was quite popular in Venetia.
Unfortunately, I've no possibility to check it. Maybe somebody else heard about it?

BTW, imagine feministic movement in "haremed Europe" :D
 

Redbeard

Banned
As late as 18th century Danish Kings officially had "wives to right and left hand", after that the concubines were (are?) at least as numerous, but unofficial.

We coould have the democracy wave of 19th century remain a short lived experiment as the first democracies develop into "cleptocracies" and chaos. This is followed by a Monarchial/Feudal restoration wave guranteeing law and order but also claiming back old rights and habits. Initially only among Kings, but soon spreading to the upper nobles.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Having done a little bit of research from the ideas suggested, it would seem that the Harem idea as an institution came from Byzantine tradition (Constantine's empress Helen) but the Ottomans simply took Islamic polygamy and merged it into it.

Could the opposite have happened without Constantine's cross in the sky stuff ? Could a Roman emperor have over-run the Islamic heartland and blended the Byzantine traditions with the Islamic concept of polygamy ?

Get rid of Christianity and relegate Islam to its local roots and offshoots... Have Byzantine traditions spread throughout Europe ?

I suppose as always it is a question of dates ? The reading doesn't seem to fit the dates very well...

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Otis Tarda said:
Get rid of Western Christianity?
Click to expand...

In which way ? Allow the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings to continue as Heathens ? The dynamics of missionaries such as Saint Augustine seem to indicate that this is a difficult task to achieve. Maybe an Islamic conquest of Rome ? If Byzantium focused on regaining ground in the East, and not on Italy, then perhaps Italy will be invaded and conquered by Muslims such as Spain was.

Again though, I am not certain of the dates of any of this, being way outside 'my period'

Grey Wolf
now where did I put my concubine ?
 

MerryPrankster

I heard that one reason that celibacy of the clergy was adopted was that many priests had wives and concubines, and someone decided that "Enough is enough!" (there's also the matter of the church inheriting dead priests' property).

Perhaps you could tweak Christianity a bit. The Apostle Paul wrote (Titus, I think) that a Bishop should be "the husband of one wife." However, I don't think he explicitly condemned polygamy (though you could rationalize doing away with it under "Do unto others," as a man taking a second wife would hurt the first one's feelings and cause all sorts of problems).

Perhaps laypeople can be polygamous but the clergy cannot. However, if taken too far, this could lead to incest (lots of interrelated bloodlines) and other problems, and might get zapped on those grounds.
 

MerryPrankster

"In which way ? Allow the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings to continue as Heathens ? The dynamics of missionaries such as Saint Augustine seem to indicate that this is a difficult task to achieve."

Even if St. Augustine never shows up, the Anglo-Saxons would have probably converted to the Celtic Rite of Christianity based on the work of Irish missionaries who'd already converted the Picts, Scots, and peoples of northern England.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
What? Byzantine harems? What are you all talking about?!? Harems originated in Persia long before the Roman Empire.

The Byzantines used eunuchs, but not in a harem system. All the Byzantine emperors were Christian, with one wife. Polygamy didn't even exist in pre-Christian Rome.

For Christian harems, it seems to me that some development of the medieval right of Lords to deflower virgins on their wedding nights might be the best starting point.
 

Otis Tarda

"Harem does not necessarily must by connected to polygamy. In the back of inner yard, in most secluded part of the house of Bizantine Emperor, there were women rooms called gynekaion. Corresponding with Eastern tradition, all servants were recruted from eunuchs. Woman living in gynekaion were divided on groups, depending on their duties";

Of course Byzantine Emperor had one wife; but, I doesn't mean he hadn't some concubines, or just female slaves. I don't know, however, how official it was.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Otis Tarda said:
"Harem does not necessarily must by connected to polygamy. In the back of inner yard, in most secluded part of the house of Bizantine Emperor, there were women rooms called gynekaion. Corresponding with Eastern tradition, all servants were recruted from eunuchs. Woman living in gynekaion were divided on groups, depending on their duties";

Of course Byzantine Emperor had one wife; but, I doesn't mean he hadn't some concubines, or just female slaves. I don't know, however, how official it was.
Click to expand...

OK, that's true. "Harem" is short for "haremlik", which means "women's quarters". But Byzantine emperors did not have concubines - that was forbidden. They of course had mistresses...

Women's quarters are common to just about every civilization that ever existed though. I think Grey Wolf was looking for tons o' women to service the monarch.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
OK, that's true. "Harem" is short for "haremlik", which means "women's quarters". But Byzantine emperors did not have concubines - that was forbidden. They of course had mistresses...

Women's quarters are common to just about every civilization that ever existed though. I think Grey Wolf was looking for tons o' women to service the monarch.
Click to expand...

Well, as usual I was confused as to what I was really looking for, but I've won these nice ceramic tiles on Ebay...

Grey Wolf
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Why does it have to be a "noble"? The privileges of nobility in West Europe are becoming limited by the beginning of the 20thc.

A major problem here, oddly, might be the West's traditions of romantic love, particularly as it is seen as exclusive to one person, the "soul mate". Systems that allow and encourage polygamy or concubinage look differently on marriage, seeing it as a power tool among families rather than a manifestation of affection, or even attraction. It also has its roots in societies where power is more familial than governmental but I see this as a lesser factor.

Perhaps if a necessary part of the average 12thc troubadour's education had been a tour of the courts of the east, then the ideal today would be to find the "right" 7 or 8 women and settle down.
 

Otis Tarda

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
But Byzantine emperors did not have concubines - that was forbidden. They of course had mistresses...
Click to expand...

What's the difference in English between mistress and concubine?
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Not much. really. However, a mistress is defined as a "female lover" while a concubine is a type of sexual slave. Possibly, the mistress was the less recognized of the two legally. The two terms are not listed as synonyms in some thesauri although they are in others.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
NapoleonXIV said:
Not much. really. However, a mistress is defined as a "female lover" while a concubine is a type of sexual slave. Possibly, the mistress was the less recognized of the two legally. The two terms are not listed as synonyms in some thesauri although they are in others.
Click to expand...

You generally have a love relationship with a mistress, who is legally an equal. A concubine is for sex, is often property, and consent does not enter into the picture.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Why does it have to be noble? Because I can't see a peasant harem system developing. "Hey Steve, how was work today?" "Oh, fine. I plowed the field, fed the pigs, cleaned out the storm drain... now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to retire to my harem."

NapoleonXIV said:
Why does it have to be a "noble"? The privileges of nobility in West Europe are becoming limited by the beginning of the 20thc.

A major problem here, oddly, might be the West's traditions of romantic love, particularly as it is seen as exclusive to one person, the "soul mate". Systems that allow and encourage polygamy or concubinage look differently on marriage, seeing it as a power tool among families rather than a manifestation of affection, or even attraction. It also has its roots in societies where power is more familial than governmental but I see this as a lesser factor.

Perhaps if a necessary part of the average 12thc troubadour's education had been a tour of the courts of the east, then the ideal today would be to find the "right" 7 or 8 women and settle down.
Click to expand...
 

MerryPrankster

Perhaps polygamy might come around as a compromise measure.

In medieval times, there were lots of courtesans (educated prostitutes to serve as companions for noblemen). Nobles married for political purposes and something tells me most of those marriages were not happy. Ergo, courtesans.

However, WI a nobleman could have more than one wife? He could marry one (or two) for political purposes, while keeping a space open for "the one."

Of course, "the one" might find the other 1-2 wives obnoxious and that'll snowball into all sorts of nasty domestic situations, which is probably why polygamy was outlawed..
 
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