How to get the Germans beat the USSR in 1942

Mifletz · Mar 24, 2004

After the crisis of 1941, Moscow was unconquerable by the Germans in 1942. But they still had a chance of taking Leningrad & Stalingrad. Is there any winning strategy for the Germans, or a disastrous mistake for the Russians to make, to knock Russia out of the war or subdue her in 1942-43, or is it already too late to beat her in any realistic scenario?

Xen · Mar 24, 2004

Perhaps having better supply lines could turn the tide of the battle in favor of Hitler.

Faeelin · Mar 24, 2004

Xen said:
Perhaps having better supply lines could turn the tide of the battle in favor of Hitler.

Don't better supply lines imply a better soviet infrastructure, and thus effects on how the soviets fight?

Xen · Mar 24, 2004

Faeelin said:
Don't better supply lines imply a better soviet infrastructure, and thus effects on how the soviets fight?

I meant better German supply lines, I remember seeing something where they wasnt getting all the equipment needed to continue fighting, and Germany had no way to get it that far into the front.

Susano · Mar 24, 2004

Yes, but in orderto have better supply lines, the germans would need a better infrastructure in the conquered land... A better Sovjet ifnrastrcuture would mostly favour the sovjets of course, though.

knightyknight · Mar 24, 2004

I don't personally see a possible way of winning after Stalingrad, but I think Hitler still had plenty of chances to stablize his Eastern Front during 1943. If the battle of Kursk (1943) was either successful (if the Russian were caught by complete surprise or placed their troops in the wrong places), or the battle of Kursk was cancelled all together. The German troops would of had a chance to halt the Soviet advance for a while longer... perhaps sue for a seize fire? The Germans just ran out of manpower, and with the North Africa falling apart, and with second rate Axis-satellite troops fighting in the front, it was impossible to mount any kind of offensive that can rival the assault in 1941 to break the Soviet line.

Brilliantlight · Mar 24, 2004

Mifletz said:
After the crisis of 1941, Moscow was unconquerable by the Germans in 1942. But they still had a chance of taking Leningrad & Stalingrad. Is there any winning strategy for the Germans, or a disastrous mistake for the Russians to make, to knock Russia out of the war or subdue her in 1942-43, or is it already too late to beat her in any realistic scenario?

Have the troops Hitler sent south go to Moscow instead and have them take Moscow. I think the Germans will still lose in the long run but it will be harder for the Soviets who proably could kiss Lenningrad goodbye if that happened.

Gedca · Mar 24, 2004

Perhaps no Soviet scorched earth policy.

Doctor What · Mar 25, 2004

Gedca said:
Perhaps no Soviet scorched earth policy.

And go against 200 years of standard procedure?

Hmmmm....

Winning strategy for the Germans? I'll go with the Kursk battle going radically different

Major blunder for the Soviets? During the Siege of Leningrad they had a road for trucks across the ice of Lake Ladoga, which soon became known as the 'Road of Life'. Something goes drastically wrong with the road and Leningrad falls, thereby freeing up a big chunk of german troops.

Valamyr · Mar 25, 2004

Leningrad and Stalingrad can realistically fall easily in 1942. Stalingrad was just another dot on the map that should have logically been overrun in less than two weeks.

If Germany can stablize a front from Leningrad to Astrakhan, cut off Murmansk, seize Baku in the far south during early winter operations, and survive in good shape the inevitable early 1943 soviet counterattack, they could put themselves in an excellent strategic position for 1943.

Then, a victory in Kursk could be followed up by en envelopment strategy of Moscow.

Basically, Germany needs to pull a tight series of straight-victories during 42 and 43 to still win in the east that late in the war, IMO.

knightyknight · Mar 25, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
Have the troops Hitler sent south go to Moscow instead and have them take Moscow. I think the Germans will still lose in the long run but it will be harder for the Soviets who proably could kiss Lenningrad goodbye if that happened.

Actually the only reason that the Germans had such initial success at Southern Russia in 1942, was because they have massed all their troops by Moscow assuming that the Germans would try a second attack toward the capital.

Mr.Bluenote · Mar 25, 2004

Mifletz said:
After the crisis of 1941, Moscow was unconquerable by the Germans in 1942. But they still had a chance of taking Leningrad & Stalingrad. Is there any winning strategy for the Germans, or a disastrous mistake for the Russians to make, to knock Russia out of the war or subdue her in 1942-43, or is it already too late to beat her in any realistic scenario?

It is probably to late, yes, but lets give it a go anyway!

We'll have the Germans besiege Stalingrad instead of trying to take the city be storm. Close the Volga at the same time. Concentrate on the Caucasus, hence getting oil or at least blocking a part of the Soviets supplies, and perhaps getting the Turks to join the war against the USSR. Furthermore actually terminating Leningrad and thus linking up with the Finns. Oh, and perhaps the best thing, create a OB Ost-post, so that some competent Wehrmacht officer, say von Manstein, could lead the war out East instead of old Adolf himself!
There's a lot of organizational details one could meddle with too. Of course there's the eternal supply question and the treatment of local people in the subjugated lands etc etc.

Best regards!

- Bluenote.

Melvin Loh · Mar 25, 2004

Liberators to the Ukraine, etc

Of course, nobody should forget the key element of WI the Nazis had been more receptive to the Ukrainian, Byelorussian, and Baltic anti-Communists and everyday ppl who 1st welcomed them as liberators from Stalin's hated rule, instead of OTL gradually alienating the local ppls by their indiscriminate atrocities.

Brilliantlight · Mar 25, 2004

knightyknight said:
Actually the only reason that the Germans had such initial success at Southern Russia in 1942, was because they have massed all their troops by Moscow assuming that the Germans would try a second attack toward the capital.

The extra troops could have made it succeed in the first attack.

Anthony Appleyard · Mar 25, 2004

(1) Go straight into Russia as soon as the spring rasputitsa (= muddy period) finishes. Don't waste time first messing about in the Balkans.
(2) If Stalingrad or similar starts to happen, back the army out before the Russians can close the trap.#
(3) Cancel the "Final Solution". That will free a LOT of men and transport.

knightyknight · Mar 25, 2004

Anthony Appleyard said:
(1) Go straight into Russia as soon as the spring rasputitsa (= muddy period) finishes. Don't waste time first messing about in the Balkans.
(2) If Stalingrad or similar starts to happen, back the army out before the Russians can close the trap.#
(3) Cancel the "Final Solution". That will free a LOT of men and transport.

(1) The Germans will never leave the Balkans alone in my opinion. First the Italians can't even tie their shoes without the help of the Germans, so there's no way Hitler will leave such a vital flank to the Italians. And even if the Italians didn't attack Greece, not taking the Balkans would of left the Romanian oil fields and the Hungarian wheat fields open to RAF attack if the Greeks were to side with the Allies later in the war. In worst case scenario, the attacking German armies can be cut off from Germany when the Allies do a counterinvasion through Greece and up Vastula (not all that likely, but come on, let's use a little imagination here people!)

(2) (3) Hitler can not be the Fuehrer for those to not happen.

Brilliantlight · Mar 25, 2004

knightyknight said:
(1) The Germans will never leave the Balkans alone in my opinion. First the Italians can't even tie their shoes without the help of the Germans, so there's no way Hitler will leave such a vital flank to the Italians. And even if the Italians didn't attack Greece, not taking the Balkans would of left the Romanian oil fields and the Hungarian wheat fields open to RAF attack if the Greeks were to side with the Allies later in the war. In worst case scenario, the attacking German armies can be cut off from Germany when the Allies do a counterinvasion through Greece and up Vastula (not all that likely, but come on, let's use a little imagination here people!)

(2) (3) Hitler can not be the Fuehrer for those to not happen.

Agreed, the Germans could not afford allowing England to eventually flank them by rolling in from the south. Agree with you on 2 and 3, particularly 3.

knightyknight · Mar 25, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
Agreed, the Germans could not afford allowing England to eventually flank them by rolling in from the south. Agree with you on 2 and 3, particularly 3.

We finally agreed on something for once, bud. I propose a toast.

Tom_B · Mar 25, 2004

3 guys have wandered OT

Anthony -- the original question was given the situation at the beginning of 1942 what was the best Nazi Germany could do. Then you bring up the irrelevant topic of the invasion of the Balkans in spring 1941.

And so KnKn and BrilliantLight jump into the irrelevant line of discourse.

To address the correct topic--events of 1942--Col Seaton points out that Stalingrad was not the best rail center to capture because it could be bypassed and names a place (don't have his book in front of me) that the Germans would be much better off capturing because it would completely sever Russian rail transport to the Caucasians.

Brilliantlight · Mar 25, 2004

Tom_B said:
Anthony -- the original question was given the situation at the beginning of 1942 what was the best Nazi Germany could do. Then you bring up the irrelevant topic of the invasion of the Balkans in spring 1941.

And so KnKn and BrilliantLight jump into the irrelevant line of discourse.

To address the correct topic--events of 1942--Col Seaton points out that Stalingrad was not the best rail center to capture because it could be bypassed and names a place (don't have his book in front of me) that the Germans would be much better off capturing because it would completely sever Russian rail transport to the Caucasians.

You are correct, and the first of use to spot that.