The Madgeburg Codebook isn't lost...Brits don't crack German naval codes in WWI

Barbara Tuchman, in THE ZIMMERMAN TELEGRAM, speaks of the success of the British in breaking German naval codes during World War I. One major reason this happened is that the German Cruiser MADGEBURG, in October 1914, was set upon by 2 Russian Cruisers after she ran aground in a fog bank. The German Captain ordered some of his sailors to take the weighted bag containing the code book out in a row boat and to drop it into deep water. A Russian shell destroyed the rowboat, and, by a freak chance, the body of the sailor who was entrusted with the code book was recovered from the water, still clutching the code book in his arms. The Russians then passed the codes onto the British.

The dramatic jump this code book gave British cryptographers enabled them to start reading German naval code almost immediately. This would have dramatic impacts on the war at sea. The German strategy for dealing with the British Grand Fleet was to lure portions of it into positions where the entire German High Seas fleet could concentrate and destroy them, thus allowing the Germans to gradually defeat the British in detail. This was thwarted by signals intercepts, decoded because of the capture of the MADGEBURG codebook. For example, the German attempt to lure the British Battle Cruiser Squadron under Beatty to destruction at Dogger Bank was foiled because the British intercepted German wireless messages which lead Admiral Jellicoe to sally the entire fleet, rather than just the Battle Cruiser squadron. The same thing happened at Jutland.

But what if that sailor's body had never been recovered from the water, or if he had dropped the book into the sea in his dying moments, instead of clutching it to his chest? Or if the MADGEBURG had never run aground in the first place? The British never get the code book, and it takes them much longer to break the German codes, if indeed they ever do. The Germans are able to carry out their strategy at sea, luring detachments of British warships into traps where the superior numbers and gunnery of the Germans proves decisive. Finally, there is a showdown between the (now much reduced) British fleet and the main German fleet, where the Germans will have the advantages given to them by their superior optics and gunnery control systems. Assuming the Germans win that engagement...let's say it is in late 1916...how does this affect the course of the war?
 
Assuming the High Seas Fleet can score a crushing victory against the Royal Navy, I would gamble to say it wouldn't change much in Britain besides heightening fear of invasion by the British populace. However, I would say that it would be a damaging blow to French morale since the mentality would be that the British would be unable to keep the Germans at bay.
 
Ace Venom said:
Assuming the High Seas Fleet can score a crushing victory against the Royal Navy, I would gamble to say it wouldn't change much in Britain besides heightening fear of invasion by the British populace. However, I would say that it would be a damaging blow to French morale since the mentality would be that the British would be unable to keep the Germans at bay.

Well, one thing I can see is that the German fleet may be able to impose a tight blockade around Britain without having to resort to unrestricted submarine warfare. Thus the United States never enters the war, and Britain may be starved into submission by the end of 1917.
 
That's also possible. I realized there could be the possibility of no unrestricted submarine warfare, but the blockade could go either way. There are a ton of butterflies associated with this concept. Namely, what would the Germans have done with naval superiority? A total blockade is just one option and it would depend on how many ships the Germans had available.
 
Jutland- Brit intel advantage thrown away

Remember guys, the British intelligence advantage in reading the German naval codes was pretty much thrown away at Jutland by intense interservice rivalry between the naval and civvie intel ppl who couldn't stand the sight of each other, thereby negating the intel windfall that the RN had received on the German fleet's intentions, and leading to such heavy RN losses at Jutland.
 
Melvin Loh said:
Remember guys, the British intelligence advantage in reading the German naval codes was pretty much thrown away at Jutland by intense interservice rivalry between the naval and civvie intel ppl who couldn't stand the sight of each other, thereby negating the intel windfall that the RN had received on the German fleet's intentions, and leading to such heavy RN losses at Jutland.

Nevertheless, the intelligence did persuade Jellicoe to sortie the entire fleet instead of just Beatty's squadron. Perhaps the intelligence wasn't used to it's full capacity, but it was used to a degree that it affected naval operations and prevented the Germans from ever springing a trap on a detached British squadron.
 
I think we should at first make a difference between "crushing victory over the Grand Fleet" and "achieving permanent control over the seas around Britain".

If you compare the fleet strengths of great britain and Germany, it sounds ASB-ish to believe in german control of the water., especially as even if the Grand Fleet suffers a crushing defeat by the HSF, the ships of the HSF won´t be untouched and will be in need of a long repair time, in this the RN can bring in reinforcements, ubscaling the building program.

I see an impact on the allied war effort: The Tommies will spend more on ship building to make up their losses. They can as they have allies to bear the main burden of continental fighting. The Germans can´t, as they have to fight the war in the west and in the east, and "Kamerad Schnürschuh" (Austria Hungary) wasn´t exactly what you call efficient.

So you need not one decisive battle but a repeat of miracles to reduce the British naval strength. I leave beefing up the Grand Fleet with French units unconsidered.

The last point: Even if they are defeated once, the RN can escape every problem by chosing to blockade out of the reach of the HSF, what they did historically.

So my conclusion: Not breaking the code takes away an advantage for the british, but doesn´t change the big picture.
 
I dunno about that, Steffen.

The British had a deep belief that they had to make aboslutely sure that the Germans could not enter the Channel; even though this was basically impossible, and a lot of people in the Admiralty had been saying this for years, it would have led to a lot of panic.

Also, the French couldn't hold the Germans back without heavy and constant British help; the British comprised of the entire line running south from Belgium until it met the French. If the British weakened even slightly, expect the Germans to make a very powerful assault on either them or the demoralized French.

Oh, and any weakened of the iron British grip on the North Sea would allow more foodstuffs into Germany. For a nation that was in the throes of starvation for several years, all food is good food.
 
Steffen said:
If you compare the fleet strengths of great britain and Germany, it sounds ASB-ish to believe in german control of the water, especially as even if the Grand Fleet suffers a crushing defeat by the HSF, the ships of the HSF won´t be untouched and will be in need of a long repair time, in this the RN can bring in reinforcements, ubscaling the building program.

This is true, to a certain extent. However, many of the ships of the HSF will likely be untouched, and the Germans, if they properly exploit the victory (bombarding the shipyards on the coast, establishing a blockade with whatever ships are available to do that plus the submarines) can prevent the British from doing much in the way of ship-building. They could also detach some cruisers to go commerce raiding, which would make it much more difficult for Britain to bring up reinforcements.

Steffen said:
I see an impact on the allied war effort: The Tommies will spend more on ship building to make up their losses. They can as they have allies to bear the main burden of continental fighting. The Germans can´t, as they have to fight the war in the west and in the east, and "Kamerad Schnürschuh" (Austria Hungary) wasn´t exactly what you call efficient.

Two problems with that...even if the Germans have only a semi-effective blockade going, the flow of raw materials into Britain is going to be very much reduced. So they may not be able to ramp up shipbuilding (especially if the Germans have bombarded many of the shipyards as well). Second, if they reduce their effort on land, the Germans are going to win. The French can't take up the slack, they are already being bled white at Verdun, and (assuming the hypothetical German victory is in late 1916), are only a few months away from their army mutinies.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I very much agree with my name brother here. No acess to German codes would not put the GF into danger of suffering a decisive defeat, but reduce the risk of the HSF suffering a decisive defeat. If we could rerun the North Sea during WWI I guess a "code access" TL would result in the HSF suffering decisive defeat in say 6 out of 10 reruns, but a "no codeaccess" only in say 1 out of 10. In the OTL Jutland the HSF was extremely close to ending between the jaws of the GF and only was saved by extreme competence - and luck.

And in the end - no matter the scenario - the GF is likely to end up controlling the North Sea - and that is waht it is all about.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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