Alexander the Great

He's got such potential. What could we do with him, if he didn't die so young?

As a romanophile, I ask that you don't have him conquer Rome (he can still try if you want). Please? :)
 
I think he lived quite long, all things conidered. He was, ahem, fond of wine and, ahem, not perticulary moderate in eating. He campained quite a lot and lived in times where people didn't live as long as now. I think you can give him some more years, but not that much.
 
aktarian said:
I think he lived quite long, all things conidered. He was, ahem, fond of wine and, ahem, not perticulary moderate in eating. He campained quite a lot and lived in times where people didn't live as long as now. I think you can give him some more years, but not that much.

he also tended to launch himself into the forefront of battle, all things considered it's amaing he lived as long as he did.

I also suspect that his only potential would be to create a larger Macedonian Empire for his successors to fail to keep together.
 
There are all kinds of speculations as to how he could conquer China, unite Eurasioa under some kind of enlightened rule, and bring peace to the earth (Toynbee, IIRC) or how he would attack Rome and be beaten (Livy), but personally I'll buy none of it.

Given he inherited his father's constitution (doubtful - Philip had a health like a horse while Alexander sounds more like burning the candle at both ends, using up energies he would have needed in his 40s), he might have survived his bout with whatever killed him like he survived a lung puncture and all manner of other nasty wounds. To be in the realistic timeframem give him another 20 years (most men who lived to be 30 could hope to live to be 50 or so - it was infancy, youth, and, for women, the childbearing years that were dangerous). If he had suddenly seen the light and become a radically different person (it happens - just look at any number of Born-Again religious folk) he could have done some good, even. But look at the man for a second:

- he turned down an honorable and incredibly lucrative, not to mention sustainable peace in favor of world conquest

- he killed his best friend in a drunken rage

- he burned down one of the richest, most beautiful cities in the world ditto

- he was so angered by successful resistance he crucified every male inhabitant of Tyre

- he was given to publicly humiliating his best generals ("If I were Parmenion, so would I" - yeah, great way of making friends, Al)

- he killed thousands of his own troops, very likely by design (though if you accept that it was sheer stupidity that doesn't exactly make him look good)

- he fought in the thick of battle while he was needed in operational control

- he demanded to be treated as a God towards the end of his life - likely without ever understanding what god-kingship in the Orient meant and did not mean

- he quite probably had his own father killed

To me, that reads 'egomaniac'. Possibly even more. He's certainly not someone I would want in government, having delusions of omnipotence like that (note: it might be a good idea to vote for the candiate who promises least as the chances are greatest he actually thought about the feasibility of his plans). Would he have presided over an age of peace? I don't think he had any intention of doing sop. Peace bored him, and there was a world to conquer out there. His interest in the Persians as recruitment material was very likely motivated by the need for more pliable soldiers, and lots of them (his Macedonians and Greeks had just learnt the price of standing up to Alexander). India might have been next on his target list, but I suspect Carthage. Unless the Carthaginians gave up quickly (unlikely), they would have been in for a treatment that matched that at the hands of Rome. It had worked for Thebes and Tyre, after all... That would put him in a position to dominate the Western Med, at which point he would probably collect the submissions of numerous tribal chiefs and lose interest. like he did in Central Asia. Perhaps he'd see potential in Italic, Celtic or Numidian soldiers for his next big campaign. You can bet there'd be one.

What I'd predict is that a longer life for Alexander simply means a bigger empire to eventually collapse, and perhaps less of a heroic stature as the disintegration would probably begin in his lifetime. A more widespread Hellenistic civilisation is also likely, at least in the Western Med, which might nix Rome, but would almost certainly destroy any prospect of Latin becoming a second western language (Pontus, Bithynia, Cilicia, Parthia and Bactria became significant non-Greek powers, but their riuling classes all spoke Greek and lived in a Greek world. I could see a similarly Graecised Latin League or Samnium becoming the dominant power in the Western Med). Driving all the way to India or China might similarly extend Greek culture, though I don't think it would be as easy. In fact, facing the Chinese armies of the Warring States period might just give him the lesson in humility he should have gotten in 333. A (more likely) conquest of India might open the path for Buddhism to the West (the Greeks did not much care for foreign writings, but the Sutras might have been translated just as the Septuagint was, and the missionary impulse was certainly there). That opens up all kinds of possibilities.

Still, on the whole I don't see any of the prospects as desireable. Even the bit about 'Spreading civilisation' and 'creating an integrated cultural sphere' tends to be much overrated. We need to balance what we gained (A Greek cultural sphere throughout the East) against what we irrevocably lost (all the literatures and literate civilisations the Greeks did not care to learn about and consequently never translated, collected or read the writings of). The role of Greek as a cultural medium of communication tends to be overrated (the East did quite well with Aramaic) and frankly, I prefer what little Carthaginian, Syrian or Persian art survives to the rather anodyne glories of Hellenism. But that's a matter of taste.
 
I think I agree with Carlton on this one. What is interesting though is to consider what would have happened had Alexander been less 'bi-polar', kept the empire to a manageable size, say Greece, Macedonia, parts of asia minor, and then lived longer.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
carlton_bach said:
Still, on the whole I don't see any of the prospects as desireable. Even the bit about 'Spreading civilisation' and 'creating an integrated cultural sphere' tends to be much overrated. We need to balance what we gained (A Greek cultural sphere throughout the East) against what we irrevocably lost (all the literatures and literate civilisations the Greeks did not care to learn about and consequently never translated, collected or read the writings of). The role of Greek as a cultural medium of communication tends to be overrated (the East did quite well with Aramaic) and frankly, I prefer what little Carthaginian, Syrian or Persian art survives to the rather anodyne glories of Hellenism. But that's a matter of taste.

Excellent post. Have you seen this image from the Nimrud Ivories (IM 56642), depicting a lion devouring a Nubian? It is perhaps my favorite piece of art from the ancient world - it speaks volumes to me about the Phoenicians, who crafted it.

Sadly, this masterpiece has disappeared - it was looted from the Baghdad National Museum (the image that I've posted is from INTERPOL).
 
Leo Caesius said:
Excellent post. Have you seen this image from the Nimrud Ivories (IM 56642), depicting a lion devouring a Nubian? It is perhaps my favorite piece of art from the ancient world - it speaks volumes to me about the Phoenicians, who crafted it.

Sadly, this masterpiece has disappeared - it was looted from the Baghdad National Museum (the image that I've posted is from INTERPOL).

Know it, love it. There's a copy in the Berlin Museum of Near Eastern Antiquities, which I make a point of visiting regularly. I'm also very fond of Assyrian reliefs (look at those, everybody. Especially the ones in the British Museum.) And there's a world of stuff going on in Central Asia right now that makes my mouth water, archeologically speaking. Our view of what the world of antiquity actually looked like seems to be changing almost by the day.

I'm not at all sure any more that if we removed greece and Rome that would be a bad thing, globally speaking. And I'm a confirmed fan of Imperium Sine Fine.
 
carlton_bach said:
I'm not at all sure any more that if we removed greece and Rome that would be a bad thing, globally speaking. And I'm a confirmed fan of Imperium Sine Fine.
Come on, they invented democracy and republicanism.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
DominusNovus said:
Come on, they invented democracy and republicanism.

Actually, as I understand it, the Roman form of government (which, in a greatly modified form, is the basis for the American government today) owes much to the Carthaginians. After the First Sicilian War, the Carthaginians overthrew the hereditary nobility who controled the city, and installed a Republic (in 480 BCE) which was dominated by the city's aristocracy. The leaders of the Republic were a pair of leaders called suffetes (democratically-elected "Judges," using the same title that the Judges of the Old Testament bore, in the days before there was a king in the Land of Israel). They ruled with the advice and consent of a Council of Elders, a People's Assembly (which acted as the deciding party if the Council of Elders and the suffetes could not agree on something), and the Tribunal of the 104, a court of aristocrats who acted as the highest court. The Carthaginian "Empire" itself was divided amongst a variety of semi-autonomous entities - Ibiza (Iy Bosem, "Land of Balsam") controlling the trade with Spain and southern France, Malta (Gol) overseeing the trade routes between the Orient, Sicily, and North Africa, and Cadiz (Gadir "Citadel") ruling the Atlantic coast of Spain and North Africa. These had an annoying tendency to break off whenever things went south in Carthage.
 
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DominusNovus said:
Come on, they invented democracy and republicanism.

No, they didn't. They invented the words for it, and part of the theory underpinning it, but our modern systems of government would horrify a Roman or Hellene observer. The idea of participation in government is very likely older (though not provable in absolute terms), and the modern pattern of running it was invented in various places throughout Europe in the course of the Middle ages and the Renaissance (some historians make the rather extravagant claim that the Saxons invented representative democracy. It would make me feel kinda warm and fuzzy inside, but I doubt it).

Think of it: Greek democracyis a system of government by the 'people' (the demos, as opposed to the ochlos - those without a sufficiently valuable stake in affairs - or the totality of the inhabitants) involved in direct decisionmaking. Many Greek philosophers considered even elected officials to be a threat to democracy. The Roman Republic loved elections, but equally required direct decisions by the assemblies of the populus or the Senate - two competing bodies with rival and often overlapping authorities. None of this looks to me like a good ancestor for modern democracies, though the Roman (rather than the greek) model seems to have been widely copied in medieval city states.

Now, if you're looking to the origins of modern democracy, I'd say: look to the Ridings. Look to the 'Reichskreise' and King in Parliament, the Sworn Associations and the Cantons of the Swiss Confederation. That's where the ancestry comes from. Sure, we wouldn't have such a nice name for it (in keeping with Roman traditions it would very likely just be called 'running things the proper way' or somesuch), but we wouldn't miss that. We might even get a kick out of fantasising what would have happened if Marathon had gone the wrong way and Lord Tamishtykla hadn't turned the Akhaian States into the most dynamic and militarily significant satrapy of the Empire...
 
Leo Caesius said:
After the First Sicilian War, the Carthaginians overthrew the hereditary nobility who controled the city, and installed a Republic (in 480 BCE) which was dominated by the city's aristocracy.
This being 29 years after the Romans did the same thing.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
DominusNovus said:
This being 29 years after the Romans did the same thing.

Yes, but the concept of the suffetes, rulers elected by the citizenry, did not start with the Carthaginians (as I said, there are direct analogues in the Old Testament). Also, it is uncertain what constitued kingship at Carthage in the first place; the "kings" in question here (the Magonids) appeared to have been elected, as well, even if one family held the title for so long.

Much of what we know about the Carthaginian goverment comes from Aristotle, who admired them. In fact, they were the only barbarians whose government received such attention from him. Polybius, too, describes them in favorable terms: "the government of Carthage reached the highest point of vigor and perfection much sooner than that of Rome..." but only before launching into an extended discussion of Roman superiority.
 
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Matthew Craw said:
he also tended to launch himself into the forefront of battle, all things considered it's amaing he lived as long as he did.

I also suspect that his only potential would be to create a larger Macedonian Empire for his successors to fail to keep together.

His wife Stateira, daughter of Darius, was supposedly pregnant when he died. A son by her would be the legitimate heir to the Persian throne as well as the Macedonian. If Alexander had lived longer, there's no reason to suppose that the empire would necessarily fall apart like it did in OTL.
 
DominusNovus said:
Do the Carthaginians count as barbarians? I thought only illiterate peoples counted...

For the Greeks, anybody who did not speak Greek was a "barbarian." The Romans, of course, changed that to read "Greek or Latin," of course. LOL
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
His wife Stateira, daughter of Darius, was supposedly pregnant when he died. A son by her would be the legitimate heir to the Persian throne as well as the Macedonian. If Alexander had lived longer, there's no reason to suppose that the empire would necessarily fall apart like it did in OTL.

Well, there is really not much reason to think it would have held together. The reason it fell apart was not due to anything the Persians did, or due to the lack of a legitimate heir. Alexander's generals...none of them Persian...simply brushed aside the legitimate heir (and ultimately murdered him) and divided the empire among themselves. The only way Stateira's child...assuming it was male...could have changed that is if he inherited his father's force of personality and was able to build a base of support for himself before Alexander died. This would have been more difficult for him anyway, because he was half Persian (and thus would not have been easily accepted by Greeks or Macedonians).
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
robertp6165 said:
For the Greeks, anybody who did not speak Greek was a "barbarian." The Romans, of course, changed that to read "Greek or Latin," of course. LOL

Recently I had a Touch of Evil experience in a local Chinese restaurant. I was enjoying a bowl full of something or other, and the waitress was giggling to her friend in Mandarin something to the effect of "look, this wai guo ren (foreigner) really enjoys the fish!" I was so shocked, I nearly pulled a Charlton Heston - "But, but... this is MY country!"

I had the feeling that they considered all ang mos such as myself to be foreigners, even in our own countries.
 
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Leo Caesius said:
Recently I had a Touch of Evil experience in a local Chinese restaurant. I was enjoying a bowl full of something or other, and the waitress was giggling to her friend in Chinese something to the effect of "look, this wai guo ren (foreigner) really enjoys the fish!" I was so shocked, I nearly pulled a Charlton Heston - "But, but... this is MY country!"

I had the feeling that they considered all ang mos such as myself to be foreigners, even in our own countries.

Yeah, I have had a similar experience among Chinese here in America. And we should remember that a more accurate translation of wai guo ren is probably "foreign devil" rather than simply "foreigner." LOL
 
robertp6165 said:
Well, there is really not much reason to think it would have held together. The reason it fell apart was not due to anything the Persians did, or due to the lack of a legitimate heir. Alexander's generals...none of them Persian...simply brushed aside the legitimate heir (and ultimately murdered him) and divided the empire among themselves. The only way Stateira's child...assuming it was male...could have changed that is if he inherited his father's force of personality and was able to build a base of support for himself before Alexander died. This would have been more difficult for him anyway, because he was half Persian (and thus would not have been easily accepted by Greeks or Macedonians).
Well, what if the child was a girl? Were Alex's generals young enough that he could marry the girl off to one of them eventually? What were the rules of inheritance for the Macedonians and Persians? Say Alex's daughter marries Ptolemy, can he claim to be the rightful heir (can she?)? Or is it only through male lineage?
 
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