Confederate/Nazi Alliance

WI the Confederate/Nazi/Italian/Japanese alliance won WW2? what territories and cocessions would each get?

How about just a little more background - like why the Confederates would be considered plausible allies for the Axis powers?

Well it starts in 1895 when France decides to stop supporting the Confederacy because of Continuation of slavery. So Germany picks up trading privilages and Confederacy becomes pro-german of the rising Kaiser. WW 1 The Confederacy enters in 1915 and sends troops to Portugal, Mexico and the East asian German colonies to help the Germans. The U.S. enters in 1917 and the Confederacy and Germany lose along with Austria and Turkey. Confederacy is made to give up Cuba and Slavery. In 1923 it joins the fledgling League of Nations. Hitler still rises to power and forms the Axis pact of Italy, Nazi Germany, Japan, and the Confederacy. Another egg in the face is the victory of a black athlete of the U.S. at Richmond olympic collosiuem with Hitler as special guest. When World War 2 starts in 1939 the Confederacy invades Mexico. Subsequent crush of the Soviet Union by Germany and C.S.A. special forces. The Germans bring full strength upon Europe with the U.S. entering in 1942 the Confederates with increased strength battle them to a draw and an armitisce in 1945

The notion of the backwater CSA ever making a serious challenge to the US is, well, quaint.

Although what we learn in the drive on birmingham should be useful against berlin.

Oh my God, why is this back? You already posted this before, and it was almost universally shot down. Why post it again? https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=1383

I just don`t see a German-Confederate alliance in World War I. I know Turtledove can be a bad alternate historian sometimes, but his scenario for the alliances of the Great War was probably the most plausible (outside of a USA/Britain/France/CSA/Russia alliance). Diplomatic pressure from France and Britain would most likely end slavery before the 20th century arrived. I doubt they could even hold on to their slaves, considering revolts would happen on a weekly basis, I`m sure. The USA would have been alienated by the British and French, and would probably support Germany quite a bit. (With Britain and France allied to the CSA, the USA would be desperate for an ally in Europe.)

Even if this did happen, and Germany and the CSA lose the war (the USA distracted on the 'American Front' could be just enough for Germany to pull off a win in Europe, but I suppose that`s not the subject), I suspect that the CSA would become sort of like Turkey. The Ottomans (and thusly Turks) were allied to Germany in World War 1. When they lost (and the Ottoman Empire fell apart) they wandered further and further from Germany. By the time World War II rolled around, they remained neutral with a pretty anti-German stance, and even declared war (albiet symbolically) on Germany in the last few months of the war. The CSA would likely remain neutral or take an anti-German stance.

Walter_Kaufmann said:

Oh my God, why is this back? You already posted this before, and it was almost universally shot down. Why post it again? https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=1383

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Well, I have to give him some credit. It does look like he put an ounce more thought into it than before. His postings before didn't make any sense or give evidence of any research at all. Here, at least while possessing all the hallmarks of the shortcomings of previous posts, there is some resemblance to an ATL.

After the Southern Deconstruction the remaining CSA will consist of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and North Florida. They will not be able to give the Axis victory--and would not be stupid enough to try.

I am strongly anti-Confederacy which I feel was far more Pro-slavery then modern Southerners want to admit but even I have some doubts about the Confederacy becoming pro-Nazi. About the only thing the Confederacy and the Nazis had in common is their pro-slavery viewpoint. But the vast majority of even the most die hard Confederates never advocated working slaves to death or killing blacks for no reason. Even with the KKK, blacks usually had to do SOMETHING to be a target, usually asserting some of their rights. Sometimes they got drunk and killed a random black but that was the exception and not the rule even for the KKK.

You guys under estimate the Confederacy it could relize the waining slavery and start to industralize and have slavery until WW1. With help from the Nazis they could have some powerful weapons.

As to the Confederate/Nazi Alliance Hitler studied some Confederate Figures to write his Mein Kemp and with the C.S.A. and Nazis say they have similiar troubles the C.S.A. with the blacks and the Nazis with the Jews

I can't comment on the validity of Hitler studying confederate figures for his book, but I'm almost positive he didn't write anything about Jack Kemp...

ConfederateFly said:

The Confederacy enters in 1915 and sends troops to Portugal, Mexico

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Uh... why? If Mexico is a US ally, wouldn't that bring the US in immediately, not in 1917? If Mexico is a German ally, well, I can't figure it out...

Portugal: WTF?

ConfederateFly said:

As to the Confederate/Nazi Alliance Hitler studied some Confederate Figures to write his Mein Kemp and with the C.S.A. and Nazis say they have similiar troubles the C.S.A. with the blacks and the Nazis with the Jews

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Seems like a pretty odd reason for two countries to throw in their lot together, simply because they both have races they don't really care for. And what Confederate figures would be good enough for the likes of Hitler to want to study? As long as there is no one like Featherston, I don't think he would find much. And chances are, the C.S.A. would've been even more isolationist--regardless of whether or not Germany trades better than France or Britain--than the U.S.A. I don't know, though, but the idea of the South and the Nazis joining together just doesn't sound right.

Trotsky said:

Seems like a pretty odd reason for two countries to throw in their lot together, simply because they both have races they don't really care for. And what Confederate figures would be good enough for the likes of Hitler to want to study? As long as there is no one like Featherston, I don't think he would find much. And chances are, the C.S.A. would've been even more isolationist--regardless of whether or not Germany trades better than France or Britain--than the U.S.A. I don't know, though, but the idea of the South and the Nazis joining together just doesn't sound right.

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Besides the Confederates were for democracy for white people and the Nazis were a totalitarian dictatorship. As little as I think the Confederacy was worth even I think comparing the Confederates to Nazis is like comparing a flu to the Black Death.

One other problem here is the idea that Germany would pick up support of the Confedaracy after the French dropped it in 1895. Bismarck was an enlightened man and PreWWI Germany one of the most progressive nations in the world, which invented Social Security and the modern Welfare State in its best sense. Why would they be any more likely to support a slaveholding CSA than would France?

However, I also dispute what seems a general opinion here that a connection between the institution of antebellum slavery, if it somehow survived, and Naziism is farfetched. I have read several authors who note that both systems resembled each other in their attitude towards slavery and its racial origins. It is barely possible that Hitler had read of it and even was influenced since he does mention the US and many of its immigration policies with some favor in Mein Kampf, but very unlikely.

Hitler's general knowledge of the philosophies of his day was abysmal, being limited to the anti-semitic pamphleteers common in Vienna when he stayed there. Naziism borrowed what philosophical underpinnings it had from everyone on an ad hoc basis.

the idea of the South and the Nazis joining together just doesn't sound right.

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It would work because the ideaology is the same and so is the attitudes of Aryan Superiorty. The Attitudes toward Jews and Blacks can be the same even know the C.S.A. had Influential Jews as leaders

ConfederateFly said:

It would work because the ideaology is the same and so is the attitudes of Aryan Superiorty. The Attitudes toward Jews and Blacks can be the same even know the C.S.A. had Influential Jews as leaders

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Then how could the Nazi ideology identify with a nation that had influntial Jews as leaders?

Doesn't mean the Confederacy wouldn't have changed like before Hitler came to power Jews were in high positions in Germany

ConfederateFly said:

Doesn't mean the Confederacy wouldn't have changed like before Hitler came to power Jews were in high positions in Germany

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I think that the Confederacy was founded by traitors who left the Union because they didn't win a fair election and even I admit that the Confederacy was pretty democratic for White people. Nazi Germany wasn't democratic for ANYONE.

Brilliantlight said:

I think that the Confederacy was founded by traitors who left the Union because they didn't win a fair election and even I admit that the Confederacy was pretty democratic for White people. Nazi Germany wasn't democratic for ANYONE.

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The observation can be applied to George Washington, John Adams, John Hancock and all the other signers of the Declaration of Independence and any who rose up in rebellion against the Crown. Who is considered a patriot or a traitor is judgemental. If they believed that you could rise up in revolt against an unpopular government, why is the idea that American self-determination can only be applied once in American history, why do we encourage it in other nations while frown upon it in our own?

ConfederateFly said:

Doesn't mean the Confederacy wouldn't have changed like before Hitler came to power Jews were in high positions in Germany

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True. When Hitler came to power, Germany was drastically changed. So for this to work, some kind of Nazi-esque national fascist group would have to come to power in the CSA, correct? You never specified anything like that, or at least not that I read.