Pope Giovanni Benelli
- Thread starter tom
- Start date
Giuseppe Cardinal Siri
In both of the 1978 conclaves Cardinal Siri was the almost Pope. In the October conclave it was only publication of an interview where he mocked the notion of collegiality and strongly suggested that--contrary to what he claiming at the conclaves--he did not fully accept the Second Vatican Council which nipped his bandwagon in the bud (excuse my mixed metaphor).
Benelli had been the leading papabili in the press. He was taken more seriously in the October conclave, but I am not sure how close he really came.
In dealing with Church leaders liberal and conservative get bandied about but I submit that there are at least 3 axes to consider:
1] Theological axis
2] Political axis
3] Discipline axis
The failure to differentiate causes some confusion. Pius XII for his time was not as theologically conservative as widely believed but very conservative politically. Cardinal Cooke of NY was very conservative on the theological and political axes but because he was rather permissive ("liberal") on the discipline axis his successor O'Connor was thought be more conservative.
What jumps out about Benelli was he was not much more conservative along the theological/political axes than Pope Paul was but he was very conservative along the discipline axes. Essentially he favored excommunication for everyone not with the program. He would've started with Lefebvre to set an example but he would then turn his purgative program on the Kung, Fox, Curran, Schillebeeckx crowd--possibly even political figures like St. Mario Cuomo.
tom said:
In both of the 1978 conclaves Cardinal Siri was the almost Pope. In the October conclave it was only publication of an interview where he mocked the notion of collegiality and strongly suggested that--contrary to what he claiming at the conclaves--he did not fully accept the Second Vatican Council which nipped his bandwagon in the bud (excuse my mixed metaphor).
Benelli had been the leading papabili in the press. He was taken more seriously in the October conclave, but I am not sure how close he really came.
In dealing with Church leaders liberal and conservative get bandied about but I submit that there are at least 3 axes to consider:
1] Theological axis
2] Political axis
3] Discipline axis
The failure to differentiate causes some confusion. Pius XII for his time was not as theologically conservative as widely believed but very conservative politically. Cardinal Cooke of NY was very conservative on the theological and political axes but because he was rather permissive ("liberal") on the discipline axis his successor O'Connor was thought be more conservative.
What jumps out about Benelli was he was not much more conservative along the theological/political axes than Pope Paul was but he was very conservative along the discipline axes. Essentially he favored excommunication for everyone not with the program. He would've started with Lefebvre to set an example but he would then turn his purgative program on the Kung, Fox, Curran, Schillebeeckx crowd--possibly even political figures like St. Mario Cuomo.
Pope Gregory XVII
There actually is a theory that Siri was elected in 1958 and possibly again in 1963. Siri was one of Pius' 3 big favorites--the other two being Spellman and Montini. According to the Siri Hypothesis he turned down the tiara because Eastern Bloc Cardinals said the Soviets promised to do nasty things to Catholics in their countries if he accepted. This is borderline Conspiracy Theory--even Wikipedia allows it some measure of possibility.
Siri in 1978 liked to straddle the Traditionalist/Conservative divide. The Traditionalists believe that one of more of the 16 documents approved at the Vatican Council is seriously flawed if not outright heretical. Their usual targets are The Decree on Religious Liberty (which drove Lefebvre crazy) and The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World (which was written by 5 theologians one of whom was Karol Wotylja).
Conservatives in the Church have no problems with these documents as they were written but believed they got admixed with a nebulous and spurious "Spirit of Vatican II" and that was the cause of problems.
So assuming instead of JP I we get Gregory XVII (supposedly the name he wanted in 1958). What does he do?
1] He gets Lefebvre to return to the Church but eventually Lefebvre is disappointed by Siri/Gregory esp. that the odious Decree on Religious Liberty is never abrogated.
2] Gregory appoints a commision to form a new missal to supersede the controversial Bagnini Novus Ordo missal. This commission is instructed both to respect Vatican II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Pius XII's encyclical Mediator Dei (which was favorable to moderate liturgical including vernacularization) and Ottaviani's criticism of the Novus Ordo missal (his famous intervention).
This commission produces a toned down Novus Ordo. The Canon reverts back to Latin but the rest of the Mass is vernacular. The different forms of the Canon are made more similar to the Gregorian one. Pop music is strongly discouraged while Gregorian Chant is praised. About half of Ottavianai's objections to the Novus Ordo were about the theology in its preface. The new missal will meet all of those objections.
On the theological level Pope Gregory tries to revert to more old fashioned Thomisitic theology. The cardinals in the 1978 conclaves wanted excommunication and Siri ran as a moderate strict on the discipline scale used only as a last resort so that while Siri would like to sweep the Church free of Kungs, Currans and Greeleys he might take lesser disciplinary measures.
Gregory would not like Liberation Theology. He would emphasize Marian devotion even more than JP 2 and be a big advocate of the rosary. Politically he would be AntiCommunist but not a wily as the Polish Pope and would rather focus on badmouthing the Italian Left.
I don't see him permitting artificial contraception. Instead I see him trying to justify its banning with a more traditional theological framework (ie. more essentialist less consequentialist) akin to Pius XI's encyclical Casti Connubi.
tom said:
There actually is a theory that Siri was elected in 1958 and possibly again in 1963. Siri was one of Pius' 3 big favorites--the other two being Spellman and Montini. According to the Siri Hypothesis he turned down the tiara because Eastern Bloc Cardinals said the Soviets promised to do nasty things to Catholics in their countries if he accepted. This is borderline Conspiracy Theory--even Wikipedia allows it some measure of possibility.
Siri in 1978 liked to straddle the Traditionalist/Conservative divide. The Traditionalists believe that one of more of the 16 documents approved at the Vatican Council is seriously flawed if not outright heretical. Their usual targets are The Decree on Religious Liberty (which drove Lefebvre crazy) and The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World (which was written by 5 theologians one of whom was Karol Wotylja).
Conservatives in the Church have no problems with these documents as they were written but believed they got admixed with a nebulous and spurious "Spirit of Vatican II" and that was the cause of problems.
So assuming instead of JP I we get Gregory XVII (supposedly the name he wanted in 1958). What does he do?
1] He gets Lefebvre to return to the Church but eventually Lefebvre is disappointed by Siri/Gregory esp. that the odious Decree on Religious Liberty is never abrogated.
2] Gregory appoints a commision to form a new missal to supersede the controversial Bagnini Novus Ordo missal. This commission is instructed both to respect Vatican II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Pius XII's encyclical Mediator Dei (which was favorable to moderate liturgical including vernacularization) and Ottaviani's criticism of the Novus Ordo missal (his famous intervention).
This commission produces a toned down Novus Ordo. The Canon reverts back to Latin but the rest of the Mass is vernacular. The different forms of the Canon are made more similar to the Gregorian one. Pop music is strongly discouraged while Gregorian Chant is praised. About half of Ottavianai's objections to the Novus Ordo were about the theology in its preface. The new missal will meet all of those objections.
On the theological level Pope Gregory tries to revert to more old fashioned Thomisitic theology. The cardinals in the 1978 conclaves wanted excommunication and Siri ran as a moderate strict on the discipline scale used only as a last resort so that while Siri would like to sweep the Church free of Kungs, Currans and Greeleys he might take lesser disciplinary measures.
Gregory would not like Liberation Theology. He would emphasize Marian devotion even more than JP 2 and be a big advocate of the rosary. Politically he would be AntiCommunist but not a wily as the Polish Pope and would rather focus on badmouthing the Italian Left.
I don't see him permitting artificial contraception. Instead I see him trying to justify its banning with a more traditional theological framework (ie. more essentialist less consequentialist) akin to Pius XI's encyclical Casti Connubi.