Another alternate space race thread

Diamond

Banned
It'd be interesting to see some sort of post-Victorian 'gentleman's race' between Great Britain and Czarist Russia, with the Germans and French as respective junior partners.

Or in a world of this type, would there be any impetus for the Great Powers to advance in that direction? Maybe it'd be a nation like Japan or Brazil, seeking a means to put themselves on equal footing with the Great Powers.
 
And an unwelcome entrant...

In typical European fasion, the various nations work on their space ships, focusing on each other, totally disregarding the uncouth Americans across the Atlantic--THEY aren't important, anyways.
I'd expect that, if we decided to play too, us Yankees would get there first, fail spectacularly, or both. America's industry wouldn't have recieved the Great War boost, but the resources of a continent are available, along with this crazy Yankee innovation.
Of course, it's also possible that the USA would see space as a waste of money.
 
Firstly, I'm bumping this thread.

Secondly, weren't the Germans the ones with the real expertise in chemicals and large, hollow metal objects (airships) around the turn of the century? So surely they'd be at least one of the front runners in space technology.

Also, would there be sufficient interest in space travel? I can see it maybe being seen as a development of the exploration of the poles, climbing ever-higher mountains, exploring 'darkest Africa', that sort of thing.

Any thoughts, anyone?
 
Bumping again.

See above. Would the Germans be the front runners in a Great Game-type space race? I'm thinking early 20th century, possibly as an alternative or complement to imperial expansion on Earth.

Could effective spacecraft be built before 1950s tech (ie transistor, early electronic computing) becomes available? Do you actually need computers, compact electronics and so forth, in order to effectively work out orbital trajectories? Or could the same effects be achived through much more trial and error?

I am making the assumption that fuel would be less of a problem for an earlier space race - its perfectly possible to use hydrazine and hydrogen peroxide as propellant. Both are non-cryogenic, they provide a respectable specific impulse, and both were fairly easily produced by the early 20th century (see articles).
 
that a thuff one

because World War I & II pusht Rocket technolgy see A4 alias V-2

but German Rocket Sicentist were Fare ahead of there Time
Like Hermann Oberth
member of Verein für Raumschiffahrt = VfR (Society for Space Travel)

a note from History
23 July 1930 - VfR demonstrates rocket motor to German government officials.
The VfR fires its 'Kegelduese' liquid oxygen and gasoline-fueled rocket motor in a demonstration for the Director of the Chemisch-Technische Reichsanstalt in an attempt to secure financial support.
Nebel had arranged the demonstration and runs the Kegelduese for 90 seconds. It generates 7 kgf and consumes 6 kg of liquid oxygen and 1 kg of gasoline in that time (specific impulse 90 seconds).
Participating are Oberth, Nebel, Riedel, Ley, and werner Von Braun.

the was another group in England in same Time
British Interplanetary Society
1937 plans for moon rocket using existing powder rocket technology

its perfectly possible to use hydrazine and hydrogen peroxide as propellant.
Yes and No ! the Problem of first rocket engine was Cool down prevent the construction material itself becoming too hot
that why used Water alcohol or Gasoline to cool the Engine
Hydrazin ist a good rucket fuel but it has combustion instability with Oxidiser
See Ariane 1 Prototype Rocket Problem were the Hydrazin was replace with UDMH

much better ist gasoline and hydrogen peroxide as propellant.!
 
upps I forgot

the alcohol ist the Rocket fuel, the Water for Cool down

Oberth work on better engine that used only alcohol and liquid oxygen
and Later liquid Hydrogene and liquid oxygen

only if he had Money....
 

Alcuin

Banned
What sort of space race would have developed without the two world wars?

I'd see a Franco-Russian effort, perhaps at Baikonur, but more likely in Senegal or French Guiana.

I'd see a British-Japanese combined effort with a launch site in Sarawak.

And I'd see a German-led European effort several years behind the other two groupings.

I don't imagine the USA would be very interested but may come along later, along with Brazil and the Ottoman Empire, to race for the rest of the solar system and the stars after the Union Flag and Rising Sun have been planted on the moon.
 

Thande

Donor
Didn't most people in the 1890s think that space exploration would be done using spaceguns rather than rockets?

Admittedly they might change their mind after a few people are turned to chunky salsa...
 

Alcuin

Banned
Didn't most people in the 1890s think that space exploration would be done using spaceguns rather than rockets?

Admittedly they might change their mind after a few people are turned to chunky salsa...

But Konstantin Tsiolkovski (OTL) published the rocket equation in 1903 and suggested multistage rockets in 1929. By the time the space race began, it would probably be obvious that something like a rocket would be needed to reach escape velocity in several bursts rather than in a single instant.
 
With no World Wars to interupt thing, I think that the major players in a Gentlemen's Space Race are going to be the Americans, asRobert Goddard DID invent the liquid fueled rocket after all, and the Germans, as Oberth and Von Braun were first to really perfect liquid rocket technology and make it reliable.
 

Thande

Donor
With no World Wars to interupt thing, I think that the major players in a Gentlemen's Space Race are going to be the Americans, asRobert Goddard DID invent the liquid fueled rocket after all,
Yes, and Frank Whittle invented the jet engine, but that doesn't mean Britain had jets first. As in that case, most people thought Goddard was a fool until the Germans proved him right.
 
Yes, and Frank Whittle invented the jet engine, but that doesn't mean Britain had jets first.

My understanding is that they did, but that the Germans got theirs into combat first. Its the same thing Goddard. He was the first build and perfect a working prototype, but the German got the production stage faster, as they had backing from the senior Nazi leadership.
 
I'd see a Franco-Russian effort, perhaps at Baikonur, but more likely in Senegal or French Guiana.

I'd see a British-Japanese combined effort with a launch site in Sarawak.

And I'd see a German-led European effort several years behind the other two groupings.

I don't imagine the USA would be very interested but may come along later, along with Brazil and the Ottoman Empire, to race for the rest of the solar system and the stars after the Union Flag and Rising Sun have been planted on the moon.

Why a British-Japanese joint effort? I can see a Franco-British-Russian effort being likely actually, if something like the Triple Entente develops. Why do you feel a British-Japanese effort to be more feasible?
 
Why a British-Japanese joint effort? I can see a Franco-British-Russian effort being likely actually, if something like the Triple Entente develops. Why do you feel a British-Japanese effort to be more feasible?

Maybe because the British were providing training for Japanese naval officers.
 

Thande

Donor
The Entente Cordiale was a very recent and in some ways quixotically signed alliance, along with the treaty with Russia; while Britain had previously aligned with France in the Crimean War, the latter part was as unexpected as the modern US allying with Iran against Pakistan, for example - Russia had been Enemy No. 1 for much of the 19th century. So whereas the Entente was very much an alliance of convenience, aimed at British (and particularly Edward VII's) analysis of who was the most dangerous threat in Europe right now at this moment, i.e., Germany, the Anglo-Japanese alliance was on another level. Inaccurately in retrospect, Britain more or less believed the Japanese to be the safe little yellow cousins we could trust not to switch sides. So an Anglo-Japanese effort is certainly more likely than an Entente one to my mind, but I have a feeling that space efforts would really be one per country, with only token cooperation across alliance lines. After all, it isn't as though there was a NATO and a Warsaw Pact space programme in OTL.

One interesting aspect is that a British space programme, rather than being based out of Woomera, Australia, as in OTL, will probably be based in equatorial India...
 
Ah yes, I hadn't really considered the Entente as an aberration. Certainly the treaty with Russia was rather odd. OK.

And should a British space programme be based in India, this will of course provide more equatorial boost than the Americans get in Florida. Woomera is at 31' south (roughly), Kennedy Space Center is at 28.5' north (again, roughly). Parts of India are 10' or less above the equator.
 

Alcuin

Banned
I saw the space-race as an alternative to warfare, hence the Anglo Japanese and Franco Russian programmes. (As Thande points out, the alliance with Japan is Britain's most likely, even now Japan tends to be pro British in OTL). I still think Sarawak (virtually on the equator) was a better bet than India... having the added advantage that once the rockets have launched over Borneo, they travel over the Pacific.
 
The French would probably have a site in either French Guiana or French West Africa.

Germany's platform would be in either Cameroon or Tanganika.

Japan's would probably be in Formosa.

Russia's would probably be set in Baikonur.
 
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