Alternative AH Star Trek

Michael E Johnson · Feb 6, 2004

Message 1 in thread
From: Tristan Jones (tristan@scm-rpg.com.au)
Subject: Alternative AH Star Trek

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Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if
Date: 2002-02-25 22:13:20 PST

In a TL where the Nazi's won WW2 and created their grossreich, this TL's
POD would be Churchill dying in 1938 or 1939 and British PM Halifax
suing the Nazis for peace. The pacific war never happens and Americia
remains netural, Germany conquerors the Soviet Union and Japan
conquerors China. In this TL the Nazis are a superpower (dominating
Europe) as powerful as the USA and the Japanese are a another major
power (ruling over China).

When Gene Roddenberry comes to create Star Trek in this TL, how would he
rep sent the major powers of this TL's world. In OTL the Federation in
Star War repsented the USA, The Romulans the Chinese and the Klingons
the Russians.

In this TL's Star Trek apart from the Federation being the America of
this TL, how would the Japanese and Germans be repsented. The sort of
society the Victorious Third Reich in this TL has is similar to what is
protrayed in Fatherland, with a nasty slave system.

Archangel Michael · Feb 6, 2004

I always thought that the Terran Empire in 'Mirror, Mirror' came from a TL were the Nazi's won WW2.

David Howery · Feb 7, 2004

That was my favorite episode of the whole series. They continued that theme in DS9, but it got kinda silly after a while. There was a book (TNG setting) where the mirror universe comes after the Enterprise that was surprisingly good. The POD of the mirror universe (in the book anyway) was the lack of a WW3, although there were some darker elements earlier, going as far back as the Iliad. The Eugenics Wars there apparently ended without nukes....

ljofa · Feb 10, 2004

I also thought the Terrans and the Vulcans went straight to the Delta Quadrant and destroyed the Borg - I'm sure I recall reading that line in one of the books as well.

As for the main question - I think the Japanese would be the Romulans and the Klingons as Germans. However, the Romulans would be a little more aggressive and the Klingons more scientific and a little more genocidal.

zoomar · Feb 10, 2004

I think the whole Star Trek universe would be a lot less optimistic. A liberal like Roddenberry could eventually imagine progress to a liberal future marked by only relatively minor struggles when the "enemy" was a liberalizing Soviet Union - had the enemy been Nazism, Fascism, and racist Japanese Militarism, I don't think he would be as willing to see any compromise with these forces of evil. I suspect his "Earth Federation" would have been born out of a violent conflict on the order of the American Civil War and WW2. I would think the possibility exists we (humans) would stumble upon a great galactic conflct mirroring the earthy war between democracy and fascism. Some Aliens might be created to show the best we are capable of (Vulcans?), but guys like the Romulans and Klingons would be pure evil (Romluans would be Japs and Kingons, Germans). The Earth people and their Vulcan allies would end up conquering and overthrowing these aliens, not joining with them. The shows style would probably be somewhat more militaristic and Kirk would have been styled more like Patton or Nimtz than Cook and Hornblower.

Pax Britannia · Feb 15, 2004

zoomar said:
I think the whole Star Trek universe would be a lot less optimistic. A liberal like Roddenberry could eventually imagine progress to a liberal future marked by only relatively minor struggles when the "enemy" was a liberalizing Soviet Union - had the enemy been Nazism, Fascism, and racist Japanese Militarism, I don't think he would be as willing to see any compromise with these forces of evil. I suspect his "Earth Federation" would have been born out of a violent conflict on the order of the American Civil War and WW2. I would think the possibility exists we (humans) would stumble upon a great galactic conflct mirroring the earthy war between democracy and fascism. Some Aliens might be created to show the best we are capable of (Vulcans?), but guys like the Romulans and Klingons would be pure evil (Romluans would be Japs and Kingons, Germans). The Earth people and their Vulcan allies would end up conquering and overthrowing these aliens, not joining with them. The shows style would probably be somewhat more militaristic and Kirk would have been styled more like Patton or Nimtz than Cook and Hornblower.

I always assumed the Klingons repersented the Japanese because of their fanatacism and code of honour in Battle. The Romulans always remind me of the British when we still had our empire in some ways.

Michael E Johnson · Feb 15, 2004

---I always assumed the Klingons repersented the Japanese because of their fanatacism and code of honour in Battle. The Romulans always remind me of the British when we still had our empire in some ways---

Klingons were supposed to "be" Soviets and the Romulans were the Chinese. Of course we do have another OTL WWII analgoy in DS9 with the Cardassians as Germans and Bajorans as Jews.

Grey Wolf · Feb 15, 2004

David Howery said:
That was my favorite episode of the whole series. They continued that theme in DS9, but it got kinda silly after a while. There was a book (TNG setting) where the mirror universe comes after the Enterprise that was surprisingly good. The POD of the mirror universe (in the book anyway) was the lack of a WW3, although there were some darker elements earlier, going as far back as the Iliad. The Eugenics Wars there apparently ended without nukes....

Yes, the original Mirror Mirror is excellent and the dystopia extremely good. In DS9 they ironed over all the potential of this, and made a pure DS9 mirror that really didn't live up to the standards of the original series one. Of course, I'm biased - I thought Kirk's girl in Mirror Mirror was absolutely gorgeous !

Grey Wolf

robertp6165 · Feb 15, 2004

zoomar said:
The shows style would probably be somewhat more militaristic and Kirk would have been styled more like Patton or Nimtz than Cook and Hornblower.

That kind of reminds me of an old joke I heard right after TNG first came out.

If Captain Kirk and Captain Picard had a fight, who would win?

Captain Kirk.

Why?

Because Picard would start trying to negotiate with Kirk...."Let's try to reason our way out of this situation, shall we?" Meanwhile, Kirk would just pull out his phaser and shoot him.

Gedca · Feb 16, 2004

Mikey said:
I always thought that the Terran Empire in 'Mirror, Mirror' came from a TL were the Nazi's won WW2.

The Nazi winning WWII TL comes from "The City on the Edge of Forever", "Mirror, Mirroe was simply an evil version of the Enterprise crew.

Here's the plot from "The City on the Edge of Forever"

McCoy accidentally injects himself with an overdose of cordrazine, a drug which makes him exhibit signs of paranoia and madness, while treating an ailing Sulu on the Bridge. Delirious, he beams down to a nearby planet's surface, with Kirk and a landing party on his heels.
They are too late to stop the doctor from leaping through a living time machine called "The Guardian of Forever." At that moment, the U.S.S. Enterprise ceases to exist and the landing party is stranded. The Guardian explains that McCoy went back into Earth's history and changed it, thereby altering the future. Kirk and Spock go through the Guardian, to Depression-era America, a few days before McCoy is to arrive and change history.

They encounter a social worker, Edith Keeler, who helps them find work to pay for the equipment Spock requires to build a tricorder. Unknown to Kirk and Spock, Edith has taken in the recently-arrived and ill McCoy. Kirk promptly falls in love with Edith and is devastated when Spock completes his tricorder and discovers that in order to repair history, they must let Edith Keeler be killed in an auto accident. If they allow McCoy to save her — as he did before — she will start an effective pacifist movement that will delay the United States' entrance into World War II, thus allowing Hitler's Germany to develop the atomic bomb first and conquer the planet.

When the moment comes, a heartbroken Kirk stops McCoy from saving Edith, and the three officers journey back through the Guardian, where they find things as they should be again.

ljofa · Feb 16, 2004

Robertp6165:

Those Kirk vs Picard arguments:

Kirk stood in a Klingon court and meekly accepted his sentencing to Rura Penthe.

Picard went to Qo'nos repeatedly and ferociously argued with the Klingons in their own language...

Mr_ Bondoc · Feb 16, 2004

Considering that Gene Roddenberry was a Los Angeles police officer in OTL, it would seem to reason that Starfleet would be seen as an organization more akin to the SS. With German needs for Wagnerian drama, the "Perry Rhodan" stories would probably be a source material for many of the stories. You would have many "covert propoganda" messages inserted into the story similar to Iron Fist written by Norman Spinrad (e.g. aliens who reflect every bad stereotype of Jews and/or Communists). There would certainly be no Chekov or Uhura on board.

By the way, "Enterprise" really blows! It's sad when only the guest appearence of the occasional supermodel or professional wrestler seems to break the tedium of Captain Archer's constant pious rants!!

Tyr · Feb 16, 2004

I thought the Ferenghi were more like the Americans.

David Howery · Feb 16, 2004

Bond> in general, I agree with you about 'Enterprise'. However, I thought the last few episodes this season were pretty good... It's improved a lot since they got themselves a quest to go into this weird sector of space to save Earth....

MerryPrankster · Feb 17, 2004

The Klingons, with their militaristic, honor-based culture do resemble the Japanese more than the Soviets.

Now, onto some REALLY controversial stuff...

According to what I've read, the Romulans and Vulcans were originally one species. The Vulcan faction embraced an anti-emotional logical culture (seems a bit totalitarian to me) and the Romulan faction fled the home system and established their operation elsewhere.

My point is that the Vulcans, far from being a utopian, "perfect" species, seem to be the result of a totalitarian victory, while the Romulans, aggressive and unpleasant as they are, seem to have rejected a total-control system and thus more "free."

Of course, I'm no Trekkie, so correct me if I'm wrong.

MerryPrankster · Feb 17, 2004

Of course, the Romulans oppressed the Reman people (the indigenous inhabitants of the system they fled to), so despite the comparative mental freedom the Romulans have, they've got problems of their own.

David S Poepoe · Feb 17, 2004

David Howery said:
Bond> in general, I agree with you about 'Enterprise'. However, I thought the last few episodes this season were pretty good... It's improved a lot since they got themselves a quest to go into this weird sector of space to save Earth....

David, the last few episodes have surprised me also in how good they were. Finally, something has gone right with the writing for once. Each series had its over used plot device, the holodeck in ST:NG and ST:Voyager immediately comes to mind. Time travel appears to be the one here unfortunately.

NapoleonXIV · Feb 19, 2004

David S Poepoe said:
David, the last few episodes have surprised me also in how good they were. Finally, something has gone right with the writing for once. Each series had its over used plot device, the holodeck in ST:NG and ST:Voyager immediately comes to mind. Time travel appears to be the one here unfortunately.

The next to most recent episode was perfect in the way they resolved the T'Pol/Trip thing. Basically they had a go and then started to do the 'it never happened' routine, when T'Pol observed that the lack of emotional committment was no reason why they shouldn't continue something they both enjoyed.

Impeccable

Susano · Feb 20, 2004

Lol, Bondoc, dont diss Perry Rhodan, its a great classic serie!