What would've been the impact on hist had native American placenames taken a greater hold on the development of European settlements in the Americas, beyond such instances as the naming of colonies like Massachusetts or Connecticut ? Say, if the Wampanoag name of Shawmut had been retained instead of Boston, or if such Praying Village names as Hassanemessitt, Squeakeag, Naumkeag (?) and Nashoba had continued to be accepted by the English colonists instead of being renamed with English towns and villages ?
Native American Placenames
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
You'd be surprised how many indian names are actually used. My home town in Chicopee, and I live in the Wilamansett section.
DominusNovus said:
True, but the vast majority of Indian language place names in the USA are not those originally used by the native people themselves for these specific places, but were assigned by white settlers, geographers, and politicians, often merely because they sounded interesting. Thus, they do not reflect continuity between the native and european cultures are almost as much a product of white conquest as "Jefferson City".
I don't know, coming from Western PA I am used to placing my tongue around Monongahela, Erie, Allegheny, Rappahanac, Quemahoning, etc, etc.
I think that what happened is we did accept a lot of Indian place names, but they tended to be of geographic feature (mountains, creeks, rivers). More transient locations, just don't have the wide spread use necessary to get into common usage.
I think that what happened is we did accept a lot of Indian place names, but they tended to be of geographic feature (mountains, creeks, rivers). More transient locations, just don't have the wide spread use necessary to get into common usage.
Australian placenames
Hey guys I guess that tends to be the same here in Australia with Aboriginal placenames thruout the country. Alot of suburbs here in Darwin have their names based on local indigenous languages, such as Larrakeyah- which means saltwater ppl, and are the traditional custodians of the Darwin area.
Hey guys I guess that tends to be the same here in Australia with Aboriginal placenames thruout the country. Alot of suburbs here in Darwin have their names based on local indigenous languages, such as Larrakeyah- which means saltwater ppl, and are the traditional custodians of the Darwin area.
Brazilian placenames
There are many placenames in Brazil which come from the Tupi language, mainly in the southeastern states(São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais and Espírito Santo). Examples are Ipanema("rough sea"), Pavuna("dark place", another of Rio de Janeiro's quarters, one of the places with the highest crime rates in the city), Itaorna("rotten stone", where Brazil's nuclear powerplants are located - they chose the place because it's in the coast, which means there's plenty of water for refrigeration, but they had to reinforce the foundations during construction because the ground started giving in because of the weight of the concrete dome), Cumbica("low clouds", the name of São Paulo's international airport(actually, it's the name of the air force base located there), and the airport does have a rotten weather).
There are many placenames in Brazil which come from the Tupi language, mainly in the southeastern states(São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais and Espírito Santo). Examples are Ipanema("rough sea"), Pavuna("dark place", another of Rio de Janeiro's quarters, one of the places with the highest crime rates in the city), Itaorna("rotten stone", where Brazil's nuclear powerplants are located - they chose the place because it's in the coast, which means there's plenty of water for refrigeration, but they had to reinforce the foundations during construction because the ground started giving in because of the weight of the concrete dome), Cumbica("low clouds", the name of São Paulo's international airport(actually, it's the name of the air force base located there), and the airport does have a rotten weather).
Diamond
Banned
I think in the eastern US states, native names are much closer to what they would've been without European influence, due to the smaller initial population of whites. But as you get farther west, names become more and more of a mishmash, with Cherokee place names in traditionally Shoshone lands, etc etc. I think you can draw a direct connection between that and the natives being pushed steadily westward and jumbled together, far from their native lands.
Oregon, for example, is believed to come from a Sioux word, 'ourigan', meaning 'big rivers'. (I'll have to double-check that to see if I remember right
) The Sioux, obviously, didn't live in the Pacific Northwest.
Oregon, for example, is believed to come from a Sioux word, 'ourigan', meaning 'big rivers'. (I'll have to double-check that to see if I remember right
) The Sioux, obviously, didn't live in the Pacific Northwest.Michael E Johnson
Banned
---What would've been the impact on hist had native American placenames taken a greater hold on the development of European settlements in the Americas, beyond such instances as the naming of colonies like Massachusetts or Connecticut ? Say, if the Wampanoag name of Shawmut had been retained instead of Boston, or if such Praying Village names as Hassanemessitt, Squeakeag, Naumkeag (?) and Nashoba had continued to be accepted by the English colonists instead of being renamed with English towns and villages ?----
This would do a WHOLE lot more to honor the native peoples that were wiped out in the genocide that made America that the cynical OTL practice of giving " Indian" names to sports teams (ie Cheifs,Braves,Reds,Redskins etc etc.)
This would do a WHOLE lot more to honor the native peoples that were wiped out in the genocide that made America that the cynical OTL practice of giving " Indian" names to sports teams (ie Cheifs,Braves,Reds,Redskins etc etc.)
"...the genocide that made America..."
Oh No! Not the "G" word again! But in other respects you have more agressively stated my earlier comment. Very few native american place names in the US reflect any intention to honor American Indians, nor do they represent a 17th-19th century recognition that what Indians called their settlements mattered to white americans. We wanted to pretend the indians did not settle or own this land but only somehow just temporarily occupied it until we came. Recognizing their names for real settlements and towns on our maps while we were conquering them would give them a status the US did not want to give them.
Note also that, until the last 20 years or so all precontact American indian history, art and artifacts was always placed in "natural history" museums as if they were extinct pre-humans, not Americans. rant, rant.
Oh No! Not the "G" word again! But in other respects you have more agressively stated my earlier comment. Very few native american place names in the US reflect any intention to honor American Indians, nor do they represent a 17th-19th century recognition that what Indians called their settlements mattered to white americans. We wanted to pretend the indians did not settle or own this land but only somehow just temporarily occupied it until we came. Recognizing their names for real settlements and towns on our maps while we were conquering them would give them a status the US did not want to give them.
Note also that, until the last 20 years or so all precontact American indian history, art and artifacts was always placed in "natural history" museums as if they were extinct pre-humans, not Americans. rant, rant.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
--"...the genocide that made America..."
Oh No! Not the "G" word again! ---
gen·o·cide [ jénnə sd ]
noun
murder of an entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this
[Mid-20th century. Coined from Greek genos “race” + -cide.]
1 entry found for genocide.
Entry: massacre
Function: noun
Definition: killing
Synonyms: annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
What am I missing? Perhaps your saying that what happened to native Americans wasnt deliberate in all cases or that there are still some left? Either way considering how many died- genocide is still the appropriate term.
Oh No! Not the "G" word again! ---
gen·o·cide [ jénnə sd ]
noun
murder of an entire ethnic group: the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this
[Mid-20th century. Coined from Greek genos “race” + -cide.]
1 entry found for genocide.
Entry: massacre
Function: noun
Definition: killing
Synonyms: annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved
What am I missing? Perhaps your saying that what happened to native Americans wasnt deliberate in all cases or that there are still some left? Either way considering how many died- genocide is still the appropriate term.
gen·o·cide n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
The US' aim was never to plan to systematically exterminate the American Indians. Of course, their treatment was still wrong, but it was not genocide. Kicking my ancestors out of Georgia and sending them to Oklahoma wasn't what I'd call nice, but its also not genocide.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
The US' aim was never to plan to systematically exterminate the American Indians. Of course, their treatment was still wrong, but it was not genocide. Kicking my ancestors out of Georgia and sending them to Oklahoma wasn't what I'd call nice, but its also not genocide.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
--Of course, their treatment was still wrong, but it was not genocide. Kicking my ancestors out of Georgia and sending them to Oklahoma wasn't what I'd call nice, but its also not genocide.----
Why the semantics?-Even if the motives for what happened dont fit the defintion of the word 100%-the way it was carried out and the end result probably do.I would usually suspect that someone objecting to the word genocide being used in regard to this topic is an attempt to sugar-coat what happened.As someone who also has Indian ancestors, I hope that's not what your doing.
ps maybe you like the syononyms for geocide better-annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Why the semantics?-Even if the motives for what happened dont fit the defintion of the word 100%-the way it was carried out and the end result probably do.I would usually suspect that someone objecting to the word genocide being used in regard to this topic is an attempt to sugar-coat what happened.As someone who also has Indian ancestors, I hope that's not what your doing.
ps maybe you like the syononyms for geocide better-annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Concept: killing
Sorry, Michael, it was brutal conquest and an attempt at forced assimilation, not genocide. If we use the term "gencocide " to describe any instance where one group is violently conquered by another with the intent to displace, assimilate, or exploit them - and people get killed in process -we are ALL descendents of genocide victims at some point and then the term loses all meaning to denote the truly genocidal events in human history.
Diamond
Banned
Michael E Johnson said:
Michael:
Isn't it amazing how nearly every thread you post on devolves into a rant? Why is that? It truly boggles the imagination.
I could post a thread with a topic like, 'WI a bear killed Czar Nicholas in 1914' and you'd probably find a way to blame it on white america.
Not that I'm apologizing for the treatment of the American indians; as it happens, I agree with you. It WAS a genocide, intentional or not. I just don't understand why you have to use it to ruin what could have been a fun, informative thread. Not everything has to be doom and gloom and 'oh my god look at all the horrible things going on'.
Chill the f*ck out, dude!
Michael E Johnson
Banned
---Michael:
Isn't it amazing how nearly every thread you post on devolves into a rant? Why is that? It truly boggles the imagination.----
Must be all that wild African and Indian blood mixing together in my veins.
---Not everything has to be doom and gloom and 'oh my god look at all the horrible things going on'. ----
Well except that this ignores that embarrassing reality that for Indians and African-Americans the vast majority of their interaction with white-America in OTL has been doom and gloom
---Chill the f*ck out, dude!--- that wild blood again - keeps me hot .There's some French in there too can you imagine ?
Isn't it amazing how nearly every thread you post on devolves into a rant? Why is that? It truly boggles the imagination.----
Must be all that wild African and Indian blood mixing together in my veins.
---Not everything has to be doom and gloom and 'oh my god look at all the horrible things going on'. ----
Well except that this ignores that embarrassing reality that for Indians and African-Americans the vast majority of their interaction with white-America in OTL has been doom and gloom
---Chill the f*ck out, dude!--- that wild blood again - keeps me hot .There's some French in there too can you imagine ?
Michael E Johnson
Banned
---Wrong is wrong, but there is kinda wrong, wrong, very wrong, really wrong and extremely wrong and we should not confuse them.----
Most Americans at the time didnt think what they were doing was wrong.Also what about people today who think,but of course wont say it out loud because of that great evil of political correctness,that what happened to Native Americans amounts to the victor collecting the spoils of war or the natural end result of a stronger power coming into contact with a weaker one.What was done to Native Americans is a constant shadow over what most contemporary Americans think about the US.You get a combination of dim awareness and grudging acknowledgement-but when you dare to note how wrong what really happened in the formation of America is-your a radical or your ranting. What happened in the past often resonates to the present
so maybe this helps bring awareness that the sunny view that most Americans have of the American past (and present) isnt completely accurate.Which brings me back to my original point that if native American placenames had taken a greater hold on the development of European settlements in the Americas it would perhaps do more to raise awareness and honor Native-Americans than the cynical and insulting practice of naming sports teams after them.
Most Americans at the time didnt think what they were doing was wrong.Also what about people today who think,but of course wont say it out loud because of that great evil of political correctness,that what happened to Native Americans amounts to the victor collecting the spoils of war or the natural end result of a stronger power coming into contact with a weaker one.What was done to Native Americans is a constant shadow over what most contemporary Americans think about the US.You get a combination of dim awareness and grudging acknowledgement-but when you dare to note how wrong what really happened in the formation of America is-your a radical or your ranting. What happened in the past often resonates to the present
so maybe this helps bring awareness that the sunny view that most Americans have of the American past (and present) isnt completely accurate.Which brings me back to my original point that if native American placenames had taken a greater hold on the development of European settlements in the Americas it would perhaps do more to raise awareness and honor Native-Americans than the cynical and insulting practice of naming sports teams after them.
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I take it you missed the part where I refered to my Cherokee ancestors who were banished from their homeland and sent to Oklahoma. Is it semantics to not call what happened to the American Indians genocide? No, because genocide is all about intent (as are most crimes, accidently shooting someone is not the same as purposely shooting them). The intent of the United States government and people was not to wipe out the Indians but, as zoomar said, to take their land and to forcibly assimilate them into mainstream society. The Nazis did not want to assimilate the Jews, they wanted to annihilate them. There is a difference.Michael E Johnson said:
And about semantics...
annihilation- not applicable, involves complete destructionMichael E Johnson said:
assassination- not applicable, involves individuals, usually high ranking ones
bloodbath- applicable, as what was done was savage and indiscriminate
bloodshed- applicable
butchery- applicable, what was done was wanton
carnage- applicable
decimation- applicable, a large portion was destroyed
extermination- not applicable, see annihilation
genocide- not applicable, as it can't be a synonym of itself
internecion- iffy, as it is mutual, and relatively few whites were killed
murder- not usually applicable, as it was usually lawful to kill them (ever see that Dr. Quinn episode where the local souix chief is acquitted of murder of a white officer, becuase technically, the US is at war with his people?)
slaughter- applicable
slaying- sometimes applicable, I can't vouch on how violent the deaths were
Yes, I freely admit to being an anal retentive ass.