No Negroes

Nonny

Banned
Creationists believe in the Bible and that the black races are descendants of Ham, turned black in shame by God. Evolutionists believe in the Origin of the Species and that the black races are superior chance genetic melanomic adapted humans for the equatorial regions. There was little contact between the Black Continent and the other races until recent centuries. If Ham hadn't sinned or if this chance genetic mutation hadn't occurred, how would the last millennia have panned out differently, if at all?
 
Nonny said:
Creationists believe in the Bible and that the black races are descendants of Ham, turned black in shame by God. Evolutionists believe in the Origin of the Species and that the black races are superior chance genetic melanomic adapted humans for the equatorial regions. There was little contact between the Black Continent and the other races until recent centuries. If Ham hadn't sinned or if this chance genetic mutation hadn't occurred, how would the last millennia have panned out differently, if at all?

WE are the adapted race -for cold climate - and so for the Easterners.
The African blacks or Negroids are likely one of the most ancient races/varieties of man, even though probably Khoisan (Bushmen) and Australoids are the most ancient ones.
 
RatCatcher

Very interesting moment, but Negroes are the first human race, so if there were not Negroes, there wouldn't be mankind.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Nonny said:
Creationists believe in the Bible and that the black races are descendants of Ham, turned black in shame by God. Evolutionists believe in the Origin of the Species and that the black races are superior chance genetic melanomic adapted humans for the equatorial regions. There was little contact between the Black Continent and the other races until recent centuries. If Ham hadn't sinned or if this chance genetic mutation hadn't occurred, how would the last millennia have panned out differently, if at all?

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/rome.htm

Definitely a good deal less rapid settlement of the Western Hemisphere. The less hospitable regions of the American South would probably still have no more people than the northwest rainforest. Vast reaches of South America would have no or light settlement.
 
Negroes aren't really the first race. IIRC, it's thought that the Bushmen/San and pygmies are genetically older. Both these races once lived over much of Africa, but never rose above a stone age culture. Back in the iron age or so, better armed negroes, with their agriculture and building skills, essentially took over the continent, pushing the other races into marginal areas. If negroes had never formed as a race, the other two might have kept most of the continent, or perhaps middle eastern cultures would have driven south to control most of the land.
Interestingly, those who've studied human DNA have concluded that, on the basis of genetic variation, there are only two human races: the San and everyone else. Apparently, the genetic difference between whites, blacks, Asians, and the others are tiny....
 
David Howery said:
Negroes aren't really the first race. IIRC, it's thought that the Bushmen/San and pygmies are genetically older. Both these races once lived over much of Africa, but never rose above a stone age culture. Back in the iron age or so, better armed negroes, with their agriculture and building skills, essentially took over the continent, pushing the other races into marginal areas. If negroes had never formed as a race, the other two might have kept most of the continent, or perhaps middle eastern cultures would have driven south to control most of the land.
Interestingly, those who've studied human DNA have concluded that, on the basis of genetic variation, there are only two human races: the San and everyone else. Apparently, the genetic difference between whites, blacks, Asians, and the others are tiny....

That's very true.
And many of these genetics studies are by prof. Cavalli Sforza, a glory of Italian research. :cool:
 
New theories say that modern humans evolved in asia so the first ones aren't black but...Indian! Goodness Gracious Me was right...
 

Nonny

Banned
Evolution & Racism

That the races are almost genetically identical is not surprising if they all came from one family (Shem the Semites, Ham the Black & Asiatic nations, Japheth the White peoples), and according to the Bible all possessing a Divine soul..

The theory of evolution in its purist form is of course "racist"!

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-164.htm
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Whats this Ham malarcky ? This is the second time I have seen it used in some kind of argument, and it just seems like bollocks to me

Grey Wolf

Nonny said:
That the races are almost genetically identical is not surprising if they all came from one family (Shem the Semites, Ham the Black & Asiatic nations, Japheth the White peoples), and according to the Bible all possessing a Divine soul..

The theory of evolution in its purist form is of course "racist"!

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-164.htm
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Nonny said:
That the races are almost genetically identical is not surprising if they all came from one family (Shem the Semites, Ham the Black & Asiatic nations, Japheth the White peoples), and according to the Bible all possessing a Divine soul..

The theory of evolution in its purist form is of course "racist"!

http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-164.htm

There is another 'religious' voice with particular relevance to the question of races This one does not require that we disavow the majority of modern science.

http://www.richmond.edu/~jpaulsen/teilhard/isnoogen.html
 
Biblical origins of this stuff

Gray:

FYI, this stuff is all based on a biblical story related to the sons of Noah. It seems that after the Flood Noah was sitting around one afternoon drinking and 'uncovered' himself - i.e. 'was hangin in the breeze'

Ham, one of his sons, on seeing this laughed at him, while Shem, the oldest, covered him up.

As a result of this, Ham and his off spring were cursed (basically to live in poverty and to serve all the other sons), I think Shem was promised that he would rule. (Supposedly the Semites are decended from Shem.)

When the 18th and 19th century came along, a modern racial interpretation was put on the story, and Ham and his decedants were equated to africans.

I forget most of the tale which is in my opinion at best a very ordinary folk tale and, at worst, a religious excuse for slavery.
 

Dunash

Banned
The first slave traders were Muslims, who held by the Koran, not the Bible. The Bible did not figure into the mindset of the white slavers. The three sons of Ham were Canaan, Cush (Ethiopia) and Mizraim (Egypt). The only son "cursed" with slavery was Canaan, Genesis 9:24 (Ham was not cursed), which was fulfilled when the Israelites took over Canaan, servitude under whom was actually a blessing for them. The Pharaonic Anwar Sadat's physiognomy is a hint of what an ancient Hamite looked like. The Bible refers to the Hamitic Sinites, the ancestors of the Chinese and other Asiatics. Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Thais, Cambodes etc are thus very closely related to the Black peoples, as genetic research has shown, and probably to their chagrin.
 
---Whats this Ham malarcky ? This is the second time I have seen it used in some kind of argument, and it just seems like bollocks to me---


Here are a couple of books that deal with this subject in depth.I'm going to read them cover to cover 1 day.

Of course we should all remember that the Christians,Muslims and Jews responsible for this were just acting by the standards of their time so we should admire them for having these views and overcoming adversity. :rolleyes:


Noah's Curse : The Biblical Justification of American Slavery (Religion in America Series)
by Stephen R. Haynes



Product Details

Hardcover: 322 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.00 x 9.48 x 6.42
Publisher: Oxford University Press; (March 2002)
ISBN: 0195142799
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 75,854
(Publishers and authors: improve your sales)


Editorial Reviews
Synopsis
"A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren". So reads Noah's curse on his son Ham, and all his descendants, in Genesis 9:25. Over centuries of interpretation, Ham came to be identified as the ancestor of black Africans, and Noah's curse to be seen as the biblical justification for American slavery and segregation. In this book, Stephen Haynes examines the history of the American interpretation of Noah's curse. He begins with an overview of the prior history of the reception of this scripture and then turns to the distinctive and creative ways in which the curse was appropriated by American pro-slavery and pro-segregation interpreters. He argues that the story of Noah's curse was compelling for antebellum white Southerners because it resonated with the themes of antiquity, domesticity, race, and sin.

Book Description
A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. So reads Noah's curse on his son Ham, and all his descendants, in Genesis 9:25. Over centuries of interpretation, Ham came to be identified as the ancestor of black Africans, and Noah's curse to be seen as biblical justification for American slavery and segregation. Examining the history of the American interpretation of Noah's curse, this book begins with an overview of the prior history of the reception of this scripture and then turns to the distinctive and creative ways in which the curse was appropriated by American pro-slavery and pro-segregation interpreters.


and

The Curse of Ham : Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
by David M. Goldenberg (Author)




Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly
The Book of Genesis records an instance of Noah cursing his son Ham's descendants to be slaves. Although there is no biblical evidence that Ham was the "father" of African peoples, various Jewish, Christian and Islamic writers came to believe that he was, and their association helped to justify centuries of African enslavement. When did this interpretation creep in? In this sweeping and ambitious work, Goldenberg shows that early Jewish sources actually had positive or neutral associations for Africa and for Ethiopians (sometimes called "Kushites"), but that postbiblical writers such as Philo and Origen began associating "blackness" with darkness of the soul. Goldenberg's final chapters painstakingly trace the historical trajectories for "the curse of Ham" and "the curse of Cain" in Western thought through the 20th century. (Supporters of slavery thought that the "mark" that God put on Cain after he murdered Abel was black skin. The linguistic discussions in this book can be highly technical, but the research is meticulous and important.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


Publishers Weekly
[A] sweeping and ambitious work. . . . [T]he research is meticulous and important.


Review
[A] sweeping and ambitious work. . . . [T]he research is meticulous and important.


Inside Flap Copy
A truly stunning work and a masterpiece of its kind. David Goldenberg goes far beyond anyone else in offering the most comprehensive, convincing, and important analysis I've read on interpretations of the famous Curse and, generally, of blackness and slavery. His research is breathtaking. It yields almost definitive answers to many longstanding debates over early attitudes toward dark skin.


Book Description
How old is prejudice against black people? Were the racist attitudes that fueled the Atlantic slave trade firmly in place 700 years before the European discovery of sub-Saharan Africa? In this groundbreaking book, David Goldenberg seeks to discover how dark-skinned peoples, especially black Africans, were portrayed in the Bible and by those who interpreted the Bible--Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Unprecedented in rigor and breadth, his investigation covers a 1,500-year period, from ancient Israel (around 800 B.C.E.) to the eighth century C.E., after the birth of Islam. By tracing the development of anti-Black sentiment during this time, Goldenberg uncovers views about race, color, and slavery that took shape over the centuries--most centrally, the belief that the biblical Ham and his descendants, the black Africans, had been cursed by God with eternal slavery.

Goldenberg begins by examining a host of references to black Africans in biblical and postbiblical Jewish literature. From there he moves the inquiry from Black as an ethnic group to black as color, and early Jewish attitudes toward dark skin color. He goes on to ask when the black African first became identified as slave in the Near East, and, in a powerful culmination, discusses the resounding influence of this identification on Jewish, Christian, and Islamic thinking, noting each tradition's exegetical treatment of pertinent biblical passages.

Authoritative, fluidly written, and situated at a richly illuminating nexus of images, attitudes, and history, The Curse of Ham is sure to have a profound and lasting impact on the perennial debate over the roots of racism and slavery, and on the study of early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
 
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From a Biblical perspective, did Noah's curse actually have "the power of God" behind it or was Noah just hungover and cranky? If the latter, then it's not worth much for anything other than discussing the family issues of Noah.
 
---Creationists believe in the Bible and that the black races are descendants of Ham, turned black in shame by God. Evolutionists believe in the Origin of the Species and that the black races are superior chance genetic melanomic adapted humans for the equatorial regions. There was little contact between the Black Continent and the other races until recent centuries. If Ham hadn't sinned or if this chance genetic mutation hadn't occurred, how would the last millennia have panned out differently, if at all?----

Well if you are talking about that minor role that we "negroes" played in building America and enriching Western society -that probably wouldnt have happened.PC/LEFTIST viewpoint-warning!Also I guess millions of African people wouldnt have been kidnapped,brutalized and enslaved along with having their cultures destroyed and plundered in order to help build America and enrich the West- But you know everyone was doing it-so I guess Europe would have turned to another group of people-perhaps there would have been slavery for Native Americans instead of genoci- oops I mean targeted killings and forced assimilation :eek: .Besides it wouldnt have gone against the standards of the day-even Christian ones apparently.


PS-thanks for acknowledging this

---Creationists believe in the Bible and that the black races are descendants of Ham, turned black in shame by God.----


When I have brought this up here and on the old board it was portrayed as a "fringe" idea of Christianity-actually its at the core of what it takes to fully understand contact between the West and Africa
 
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it is a fringe idea, in that nobody takes it seriously today. It is not a core value of Christianity. Furthermore, the verse quoted says nothing about Ham being turned black... that seems to be a rather odd idea some people made up later. The 'excuse' about slavery being ok because of the curse of Ham was never a widely held idea.. it seemed mainly to belong to those who wanted to justify slavery. While every Christian religion accepts the story of the curse of Ham, none of them, AFAIK, accept the idea that he was turned black... appropriately, since that twist on the story isn't in the Bible.
Native Americans wouldn't have been enslaved. It was tried, and they didn't live long. As an non-agricultural culture, they didn't have the resistance to disease and weren't accustomed to the work. Negroes were chosen for slavery because they were from an agricultural culture. Without Negroes, the Europeans would have had to either return to white slavery or go to the Middle East or Asia. The San and pygmies wouldn't have been suited for slavery either. Of course, without negroes, Africa might be filled with middle eastern kingdoms and cultures, so it might be targeted by slavers anyway...
 
Latest DNA studies

Bushmen, pygmies, other not traditionally agricultural blacks, 90% of humanity's allellic diversity,
Agricultural sub sahara Africans, 9% of allellic diversity,
Europeans and Arabs, .9% of allellic diversity,
Asians, .1% of allellic diversity,
American Indians, .01% of allellic diversity.
ie, Europeans and Africans are brothers, but Asians and Africans are cousins. Black Soloman Islanders are more closely related to Chinese, Japanese, Eskimos (Innuit), Cherokee, and Mayans than to Europeans and Africans.
The data is getting better literally on a monthly basis. Very soon we will know the whole population movement history.
 
--The data is getting better literally on a monthly basis. Very soon we will know the whole population movement history---


Is this from a website or magazine?
 

Dunash

Banned
The Creationist ace is population statistics. Even with a minimal growth rate, if human races have been on Earth for 1 million years as claimed by the theory of Evolution, then there should be AT LEAST several trillion people today. Whereas the statisics instead confirm the YEC Creationist model which shows a perfect exponential groth rate starting from 8 individuals (Noah & his sons) 4500 years ago. to the current 6 billion
http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html
 
Dunash said:
The Creationist ace is population statistics. Even with a minimal growth rate, if human races have been on Earth for 1 million years as claimed by the theory of Evolution, then there should be AT LEAST several trillion people today. Whereas the statisics instead confirm the YEC Creationist model which shows a perfect exponential groth rate starting from 8 individuals (Noah & his sons) 4500 years ago. to the current 6 billion
http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html

The clever people's ace is archaeology.
 
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