What if in1933 The 5 BB and BC were still around

What if when Hitler came in power these ships were still around but still not finished .
The BB Sachsen and BB Wurttemberg were not scrapped and still unfinished .
as were the BC Mackensen ,Prince Eitel Friedrich , And BC Graf Spee
What would Hitler do with these ships .
The BB Sachsen was about nine mounth from completion .
The BB Wuttemberg was about 12 mounths from completed
The BC Mackensen was about 12 mounths from completion
The BC Prince Eitel Friedrich was about 21 mounths from Completion
the BC Graf Spee was 18 mounths from completion .

Would the German Navy Finish them ?
If they did how would this change the Germans Navys building plans ?
How would this change the war ?

It's hard to imagine a POD in which this could conceivably occur (except for one in which Germany either wins WW1 or the war ends in a true armistice of equals - in which case how does Hitler get to be anything more than a street artist).

I think some of them had to be scrapped as demanded by the Allied Arnistice Commission, while others had to be scrapped simply to make way for new civilian construction by the shipyards building them. There is no way any private industry is going to keep their slipways filled with the rusting hulks of battleships from 1918 to 1933.

All that said, it would be interesting to imagine what this could have meant. Personally, I think the Germans would have been much wiser to convert the 3 BC's to aircraft carriers and scrap the battleships. The Baden class ships would have been obsolete by WW2, having not the speed to serve as commerce raiders and being wholly inferior to all of the Royal Navy's regular battleships. Now a Germany starting WW2 with 3 35,000 ton aircraft carriers would be fascinating.

They would certainly need protection though.... I can't see the RN letting three chunky air-craft carriers off the hook! The German air-force would certainly have trained up torpedo bombers, this in turn creating a whole new air-arm....

Maybe 'Operation Sealion' would have had a chance to succede.

Doesn't anybody remember the thing called, the Treaty of Versailles? That severly limited the German navy to a couple thousand tons and nothing larger than two pre-dreadnoughts. Also I would point out that by the time Hitler would have come to power these hulls (and we're only talking about the hulls themselves, not the machinery or guns) would have been sitting rusting in the shipyards for over 15 years. There is also the 1935 naval agreement between Germany and Britain to consider, which set the strengths of the navies to the ratio about 35:100.

Scrap them that is the best the Germans are get out of them.

David S Poepoe said:

Doesn't anybody remember the thing called, the Treaty of Versailles? That severly limited the German navy to a couple thousand tons and nothing larger than two pre-dreadnoughts. Also I would point out that by the time Hitler would have come to power these hulls (and we're only talking about the hulls themselves, not the machinery or guns) would have been sitting rusting in the shipyards for over 15 years. There is also the 1935 naval agreement between Germany and Britain to consider, which set the strengths of the navies to the ratio about 35:100.

Scrap them that is the best the Germans are get out of them.

Click to expand...

A more meaningful variation of this comes up periodically on different Boards. WI the Germans were allowed to keep a little bit more of an Navy at the end of WWI (say because they were just a tad stronger militarily in the Autumn 1918 endgame). So maybe they get to keep Hindenburg and a pair of Konigs instead of the 6 preDreads that they did. This Wi has some basis in reality but instead people fantasize about them keeping Baden or even finishing Mackensen and adding them to Hitler's Navy. This I don't see happening--unless the German position in 1918 is much stronger and then you get a peace treaty that is very different in Versailles in ways much more important than the HSF size. And with a much softer Versailles I don't see Hitler coming to power. Also the 3 German capital ships would not worry the UK so much that she would not enter Washington Treaty--but a more rserious German residual fleet would cause them either not to negotiate or accept only a higher level than historical.

A few ways to get Germany some ships

Battleships Sachsen and Wurttemberg, and battlecruisers Graf Spee and Mackensen were already launched, and so not occupying slipways. Of the otehr two Mackensens, Erstaz Freya (to be named Prinz Eitel Freidrich) was launched in 1920 to clear the slipway, while Ersatz A (expected to be named Furst Bismarck) was broiken up on the slip.
Any of them would be a rusted hulk by the time Hitler came to power, if they were just left there.
That said, I've got a few schemes to preserve one or more in an A/H scenario, with a POD no earlier than Novemver 11, 1918.
Option 1.
Greece convinces the Allies to make Germany complete one or more of the battlecruisers, or better yet, Ersatz York, as replacement for Salamis, which is a rusted hulk after years of sitting in the yard. The cost is credited against German reparations. (If Greece was interested in a battlecruiser instead of a battleship, I think most people would rather have a German design.) Perhaps a new battleship or battlecruiser was part of the deal under which Greece joins the war, althought this requires an earlieer POD.
Work on the ships progresses slowly, as money is short, and Greece has no imeadiate threat, and so modifications are incorporated into the design. Delays occurr--and the whole project can't even start until the treaty is finalized. Hitler ends up offering to buy the ships when he comes to power, and they're completeing fitting out--or just takes them.
This also gives Germany the capability of manufacturing big guns and heavy armor--something useful to Germany.
Option 2.
One or more of the ships are converted to civilian use. Thios isn't as far-fetched as it might seem, other capital ships were converted, or plans existed to convert them.
Examples:
Italia, built 1885, converted to cereal carrier 1917.
Italy's Francesco Carraciolo (laid down 1914) was sold while partially complete to a shipping firm for conversion to a high speed passenger-cargo ship.
In addition, there were plans post-war to convert 3 of the Mackensens to tankers, but they were scrapped (along with the ships) for economic reasons. Suppose the plans had been carried out, while the armor was stockpiled somewhere. At least one, and possibly more (I have no information on just how many) of the guns destined for Saschen and Wurtenburg were test fired by Germany in 1938 while preparing the Bismarck's guns. Perhaps enough were stockpiled to re-arm one of the converted battleships...
If the conversion was done with an eye towards re-converting them, there would be some time savings possibly-but Germany gets an obsolete ship--bur one that could be brought up to modern standards the way the rest of the world's battle line was durring the battleship holiday.
There's a few options for getting the ships to survive long enough. Perhaps if the Great Scuttle didn't occur, Germany would have been allowed to keep 4 modern captal ships. If so, and if the Washington 20 year clause is adopted, then Germany gets to build 4 shiny new battleships for completion in 1934-1937 as Konig, Hindenburg, Baden, and Bayern reach the 20 year mark--earlier if 2 Konigs replace the 15" ships.
If Germany has four battleships/battlecruisers, perhaps the Washington Treaty gives the US and Britian 20 ships instead of 15, and a corresponding increase for the rest of the signatories, giving Britain a reason to sign on. She had to, anyways, as she couldn't afford the G3's and N3's.
Knowing Hitler, the completion of the new ships is delayed--and when he renounces Versailles, the scrapping of the older ships hasn't started, while the new ones are just about to enter service. Voila--8 capital ships. (I chose to allow Germany four, as ships of the time often opperated in groups of four.)
With legitimate reason to work on warship design, Germany may well have better ships than she did historicly--German ships of World War Two had some severe weaknesses, although this is not the forum to critique the designs.
Dual purpose guns, better armoring schemes, and more reliable engines could come out of extensive tests on old pre-dreadnoughts.
There's a few ways to keep some of the ships, or get Germany new ones earlier and better. I don't claim they're probable--in fact, they seem to be long shots all--but I think they're all possibilities, with the right POD.

Dose anyone know what were the ships of the German Navy that were to be turned over to the allies under the treaty before the fleet was scuttled as of June 1919 .. By the way four of the ships were not deleted from the German Navy untill Nov 1919 .and all were around by the start of the Washinton Treaty of 1921 . Germany after the scuttleing of the fleet had left by the Versailles Treaty was 8 pre-dreadnouts, 8 light Cruisesrs ,16 Destroyers and 16 torpedo - boats . These ships could be repalced when they were 20 years old . Could the Germans have saved these ships in Washinton . If so Germany would not beable under the Versailles treaty replace these ships till 1942 or so . Plus up untill June of 1919 the Germans still had hopes of finishing these ships as the core of a new navy.
Something also to think about the Soviet finished three Cruisers that sat around for years one was Comp .in 27.2.27 one 1.7.28 abd the last in 25.1.32 .

I think the Germans learned mainly two lessons from WWI:

1. the French should be defeated by blizkrieg

2. the British should not be alienated prematurely by a big naval programme


We know how 1. was implemented, but they also stuck quite close to 2. culminating in the 1935 naval agreement with UK. Apparently the Germans were surprised that the British allowed that big a navy and had been willing to go lower to have the British pacified.

Basically the British didn't give a damn about obscure countries on the continent hardly big enough to swing a cat around in, but watched for anything that could threaten the Empire. Without the 1935 naval agreement the apeacement policy would have been abondoned much before and left Hitler with a very big problem.

I doubt that a naval programme involving 5 extra capital ships can anything but set off the British in a very big bang!

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

A variation on this might involve the Germans being more effective at Versailles and persuading the victors that Germany would be limited to no more than 60,000 tons of battleship, construction banned until 1929, but with Germany permitted to build any number of ships SUBJECT TO THE TONNAGE LIMITATIONS ONLY.

In effect, the Scharnhorst and Gneseniau along with a possible third ship enter service PRIOR to Hitler coming into power. The deal with the Brits giving Germany 35% of England's tonnage sees the Bismark and Tirpitz begin construction in 1936 and enter service in 1938, while the H-class begin in 1939.