Quebec independant from start
- Thread starter tom
- Start date
tom said:
Are you suggesting no British rule over Quebec or merely Quebec's exclusion from the Canadian federation while remaining a Britiah colony?
tom said:
Well, upper and lower Canada were split in 1867 when they were admited to teh Canadian Federation as seperate provinces.
Valamyr
Banned
I think he means the same country. In OTL, the former canadian provinces were like the original 13 states: nation-potential maybe, for now though, only distinct entities with allegiance to Britain and none toward each-other.
Assuming the Canadian federation never happens, then the british colonies in the north might seem like easier preys for an expanding USA, and it wouldnt make much sense for the crown to leave them like that... But this aside, yes, it would definitely allow Quebec to be eventually able to control its own future.
Sadly though, i fear only Quebec and Ontario (with slightly different borders) - and maybe a limited BC in the west - would remain as independent and prosperous states nowadays. The rest would sooner or later become american without the counterinfluence of a united state in the north to protect the rest.
So the real winners would be Quebec and the USA, at the expense of English canada, and thats probably exactly WHY the confederation happened in the first place
Assuming the Canadian federation never happens, then the british colonies in the north might seem like easier preys for an expanding USA, and it wouldnt make much sense for the crown to leave them like that... But this aside, yes, it would definitely allow Quebec to be eventually able to control its own future.
Sadly though, i fear only Quebec and Ontario (with slightly different borders) - and maybe a limited BC in the west - would remain as independent and prosperous states nowadays. The rest would sooner or later become american without the counterinfluence of a united state in the north to protect the rest.
So the real winners would be Quebec and the USA, at the expense of English canada, and thats probably exactly WHY the confederation happened in the first place
Well...considering that I was born in quebec and spent most of my adult life shuffling between ontario and quebec, I think I may be able to shed a bit more light onto this topic.
England will never allow 'their' colonies (or newly independent nations) to stray too far from the motherland--they'll be keeping a close eye on their assets, especially after the RW and these noisy 'americans' down south. Quebec was always seen as a bit of a pain in the ass from day one--if it was granted independence, I suspect they'll take steps to make sure that the new nation also stayed in line.
Will they'll be happy? Er...probably not...quebeckers get a perverse thrill out of pissing off english canada They were conquered by the Brits, remember?-how willing will they be to plead allegiance to their 'oppressors' in exchange for independence? And how long will they keep that allegiance?
Now--suddenly turning around and pleading allegiance to France might make things really interesting...
Going to have to agree with you on this one.
England will never allow 'their' colonies (or newly independent nations) to stray too far from the motherland--they'll be keeping a close eye on their assets, especially after the RW and these noisy 'americans' down south. Quebec was always seen as a bit of a pain in the ass from day one--if it was granted independence, I suspect they'll take steps to make sure that the new nation also stayed in line.
Will they'll be happy? Er...probably not...quebeckers get a perverse thrill out of pissing off english canada
They were conquered by the Brits, remember?-how willing will they be to plead allegiance to their 'oppressors' in exchange for independence? And how long will they keep that allegiance?Now--suddenly turning around and pleading allegiance to France might make things really interesting...
Valamyr said:
Going to have to agree with you on this one.
Valamyr said:So the real winners would be Quebec and the USA, at the expense of English canada, and thats probably exactly WHY the confederation happened in the first place
Valamyr
Banned
Doctor What said:
In 1869, when Canada was formed, Lower Canada (Modern Quebec and Labrador) already had had responsible government for 30 years, which meant they controlled their internal policies. Its plenty for the tastes of most Quebecers, and without the new authority coming from Ottawa, most would have had no problems with nominal english sovereignty up to modern days. Most likely by then Quebec would have gotten a Westminster-equivalent status, and in modern times, they could obviously throw away the Queen at their leisure if they felt the need.
Also, Quebec's nationalism was mainly felt in the first half-century of the conquest and in recent times. Between 1763-1840, they had too little rights as a nation to accept what the English tried to impose on a regular basis. Since 1960, Quebec has become a modern nation, with a politically conscious population, which has a hard time accepting not to control its own destiny, so of course, a surge of nationalism was inevitable.
Since the former period is pre-pod, and the latter so late that the British cannot enforce anything anymore, the POD proposed is unlikely to cause conflicts between Quebec and London.
What was said before remains though; for these reasons, an attempt at forming a confederation would have been almost unavoidable. Perhaps very strong resistance against federation in several parts of Canada might have tipped the scales though. Some regions, like Newfoundland, had no interest in it from the ground up.
World-scale impacts of the POD would be minimal.
Some friction with England during the Boer war. Less Lower-Canadian troops in Europe in both world wars, of course, since a local government would have never imposed conscription, opposed by upwards of 85% in both wars. Quebec's science and technology would have more of a chance to develop, without OTL's interventions by Ottawa which were generally hugely detrimental.
For exemple, in the early 1960, Quebec's fledging aeronautical industry developped the best air-superiority fighter in the world, far outclassing any other jets in existance at the time. Though all NATO nations wanted to purshase them, Ottawa sabotaged the whole affair for (english) economic and political reasons, and Quebec ended up selling only parts for years, until the technology was obsolete.
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Valamyr-I'm impressed with your knowledge of quebec-canada politics--most english canadians don't even have that level of knowledge--curious to know how you got so knowledgeable on this topic--was this your thesis or something?
What was said before remains though; for these reasons, an attempt at forming a confederation would have been almost unavoidable. Perhaps very strong resistance against federation in several parts of Canada might have tipped the scales though. Some regions, like Newfoundland, had no interest in it from the ground up.
You got this straight--hell, I've spoken to 'oldtimers' who say, with all seriousness, that they were sold out to ottawa. Trying to dredge up my old history lessons--I'm sure there were one or two provinces that were dragged kicking and screaming into confederation as well.
Regardless-if ontario and/or quebec got independence early on, Canada will be vastly different today.
For exemple, in the early 1960, Quebec's fledging aeronautical industry developped the best air-superiority fighter in the world, far outclassing any other jets in existance at the time. Though all NATO nations wanted to purshase them, Ottawa sabotaged the whole affair for (english) economic and political reasons, and Quebec ended up selling only parts for years, until the technology was obsolete.
What I was impressed with was the long list of Avro talent that left Canada to help lead the development of Apollo, Concorde, and the Space Shuttle afterwards. Ever see the movie with Dan Aykroyd?
What was said before remains though; for these reasons, an attempt at forming a confederation would have been almost unavoidable. Perhaps very strong resistance against federation in several parts of Canada might have tipped the scales though. Some regions, like Newfoundland, had no interest in it from the ground up.
You got this straight--hell, I've spoken to 'oldtimers' who say, with all seriousness, that they were sold out to ottawa. Trying to dredge up my old history lessons--I'm sure there were one or two provinces that were dragged kicking and screaming into confederation as well.
Regardless-if ontario and/or quebec got independence early on, Canada will be vastly different today.
For exemple, in the early 1960, Quebec's fledging aeronautical industry developped the best air-superiority fighter in the world, far outclassing any other jets in existance at the time. Though all NATO nations wanted to purshase them, Ottawa sabotaged the whole affair for (english) economic and political reasons, and Quebec ended up selling only parts for years, until the technology was obsolete.
What I was impressed with was the long list of Avro talent that left Canada to help lead the development of Apollo, Concorde, and the Space Shuttle afterwards. Ever see the movie with Dan Aykroyd?
Valamyr
Banned
Doctor What said:
Haha. It might help understand if I mention that I currently live in Quebec...
I was born in the principality of Monaco, lived most of my youth in France, and moved here. First came as an Attaché-militaire to Canada (Which required me to of course study the history of the country a bit) in 99-2000, but I ended my military service afterwards. I met my better half and decided to settle down here. Now I have triple citizenship, and I must say I don't plan to leave anytime soon.
As for the movie, you mean The Arrow? Yes of course. Its tragic really. Just France would have brought an ungodly amount if they had been available.
Valamyr said:
Alright! A fellow Canadian and Quebecer to boot! Great! Let's join forces and put the smack-down on the smart-alek americans on this board! Onwards!
Seriously--nice to meet you. I've been a long-time lurker on this site but only joined this board officially about 2 months ago. There are some...interesting...characters here....
put the smack down on the smart alek Americans?! Yeah, big talk from the Great White North...
David Howery said:put the smack down on the smart alek Americans?! Yeah, big talk from the Great White North...
Sic him Valamyr! Kill! Kill!
Doctor notices a rather large empty space behind him
"...Valamyr?..."
"Ah fuck..."
I'm Canadian and a Quebecer,born in Montreal.
I had a thread about the Arrow not being scrapped. If I remember correctly, someone said that interest would have fallen off within a few years as there would be few nations interested and wouldn't be for long.
IMO, if the Avro Arrow hadn't been scrapped, next generation Arrows could've been used to launch spacecraft into orbit, or later, to the moon. Concorde-like planes could have been built later on too.
I had a thread about the Arrow not being scrapped. If I remember correctly, someone said that interest would have fallen off within a few years as there would be few nations interested and wouldn't be for long.
IMO, if the Avro Arrow hadn't been scrapped, next generation Arrows could've been used to launch spacecraft into orbit, or later, to the moon. Concorde-like planes could have been built later on too.
Quebec uprising 1763/64 ?
WI the British, instead of OTL making concessions to Quebec after the 1763 peace treaty ending the French and Indian War which buttered the Quebecois up enough for them to not support the American Patriots during the ARW, actually instituted a really repressive regime cracking down on all French-Canadians' civil and political rights, including possibly re linguistic issues ? Could a full-fledged Quebecois revolt have broken out against British rule, possibly in concert with Pontiac's Rebellion in Detroit ? Would the British have then become totally overstretched and compelled to concede Quebec's independence ?
WI the British, instead of OTL making concessions to Quebec after the 1763 peace treaty ending the French and Indian War which buttered the Quebecois up enough for them to not support the American Patriots during the ARW, actually instituted a really repressive regime cracking down on all French-Canadians' civil and political rights, including possibly re linguistic issues ? Could a full-fledged Quebecois revolt have broken out against British rule, possibly in concert with Pontiac's Rebellion in Detroit ? Would the British have then become totally overstretched and compelled to concede Quebec's independence ?
If Quebec got independence in 1763/4 then it's likely that the 13 colonies won't rebel.