AHC: Culturally "Hindu" Islamic India

XanXar · Oct 4, 2015

Now by Islamic India I don't mean an India that is majority Muslim, I just mean that the Indo-Islamic cultural continuum (which includes Pakistan and Bangladesh, and to a lesser extent Afghanistan, Malaysia etc) is much more "Hindu" (and by that I mean Pre - Islamic Indian) in terms of culture.

Most Islamic dynasties viewed Persian as high culture, in terms of Language, art, dress etc, and therefore Sanskirt, the Dhoti and other Pre - Islamic traditions were lost among those who converted.
The challenge would be to at least make Indo-Islamic culture at least as appreciative of its Pre - Islamic past as Islamic Persian culture is of its. (Or was, before the revolution of 1979).

This could include incorporating Hindu festivals, bringing in Hindu mythology into literature (along the lines of the Shahnamah), adoption of hindu titles such as Raja, Maharaja etc.

Also no later POD than the 11th century AD, (post Muhammad of Ghor's invasions).

Indicus · Oct 4, 2015

XanXar said:
Now by Islamic India I don't mean an India that is majority Muslim, I just mean that the Indo-Islamic cultural continuum (which includes Pakistan and Bangladesh, and to a lesser extent Afghanistan, Malaysia etc) is much more "Hindu" (and by that I mean Pre - Islamic Indian) in terms of culture.

Most Islamic dynasties viewed Persian as high culture, in terms of Language, art, dress etc, and therefore Sanskirt, the Dhoti and other Pre - Islamic traditions were lost among those who converted.
The challenge would be to at least make Indo-Islamic culture at least as appreciative of its Pre - Islamic past as Islamic Persian culture is of its. (Or was, before the revolution of 1979).

This could include incorporating Hindu festivals, bringing in Hindu mythology into literature (along the lines of the Shahnamah), adoption of hindu titles such as Raja, Maharaja etc.

Also no later POD than the 11th century AD, (post Muhammad of Ghor's invasions).

It's nearly impossible for any Islamic state to not have copious amounts of Persian influence after the initial Arab invasions, unless Islam is spread by trade like in Indonesia and Malaysia. If Islam was spread by trade rather than direct conquest, then Indian Islam would be far less Persian because Islamic rulers would be locals rather than Persianized Turks.

But that would be a very difficult POD to pull off. You would need to avoid Turkic invasion in its near-entirety, which is nearly impossible.

XanXar · Oct 4, 2015

fjihr said:
It's nearly impossible for any Islamic state to not have copious amounts of Persian influence after the initial Arab invasions, unless Islam is spread by trade like in Indonesia and Malaysia. If Islam was spread by trade rather than direct conquest, then Indian Islam would be far less Persian because Islamic rulers would be locals rather than Turkic.

But that would be a very difficult POD to pull off. You would need to avoid Turkic invasion in its near-entirety, which is nearly impossible.

Its not impossible, all you really have to do is have either invaders or converted rulers give Sanskrit culture the same amount of prestige Persian was given by early and medieval Islamic rulers, which given the right POD, is not impossible.

The trade route conversion is still possible too, especially in Southern India where Arab traders did reside.

Who's to say given a POD, a Turkic ruler on the lines of Akhbar doesn't change the court language to Sanskirt due to some sort of alliance relying on Rajputs and other Hindu vassals, to give one example.

Indicus · Oct 4, 2015

XanXar said:
Its not impossible, all you really have to do is have either invaders or converted rulers give Sanskrit culture the same amount of prestige Persian was given by early and medieval Islamic rulers, which given the right POD, is not impossible.

The trade route conversion is still possible too, especially in Southern India where Arab traders did reside.

Who's to say given a POD, a Turkic ruler on the lines of Akhbar doesn't change the court language to Sanskirt due to some sort of alliance relying on Rajputs and other Hindu vassals, to give one example.

Not even Akbar would accept such a thing. Nearly all of the Islamic leaders were Persianized Turks. You would need local leaders to convert to Islam to avoid the link between the Persian language and Islam.

Perhaps you can have the Tang Dynasty rather than the Arabs conquer Transoxiana? Then Arab and Persian traders while trading convert untouchables and Shudras and eventually kings convert to enhance their links with the Islamic world, retaining their culture after conversion?

XanXar · Oct 4, 2015

fjihr said:
Not even Akbar would accept such a thing. Nearly all of the Islamic leaders were Persianized Turks. You would need local leaders to convert to Islam to avoid the link between the Persian language and Islam.

Perhaps you can have the Tang Dynasty rather than the Arabs conquer Transoxiana? Then Arab and Persian traders while trading convert untouchables and Shudras and eventually kings convert to enhance their links with the Islamic world, retaining their culture after conversion?

Yes the key would be to remove the Turkic and Mongol invasions, an Islamic south India vs a Hindu north India would make a very interesting quagmire on Indian history. I assume the ancient links between the Persian Gulf, Southern India and the Malay archipelago would be even stronger.

Maybe the converted Muslim Rajas keep the caste system too, I don't see converted Brahmans and Kshatriyas willing to accept Shudras as equals. (Yes I know a variant of the Caste System does exist amongst South Asian Muslims but I mean genuinely keeping the same system based on the Aryan invasion, rather than one based on the Islamic invasions).
Was Sanskrit still the prestige language amongst South India? Or was there a Dravidian language which superceded it?

Practical Lobster · Oct 4, 2015

By the eighth century it looks like Kannada had become predominant in the southwest, and by the seventh or so, Telugu in the southeast. It's tough to tell, but I think Islam spread by merchants would probably use these local languages (and Arabic, and maybe eventually a synthesis of Arabic and these local languages).

Not that Sanskrit wasn't still used, and not that both of those languages weren't heavily influenced by Sanskrit.

XanXar · Oct 4, 2015

Practical Lobster said:
By the eighth century it looks like Kannada had become predominant in the southwest, and by the seventh or so, Telugu in the southeast. It's tough to tell, but I think Islam spread by merchants would probably use these local languages (and Arabic, and maybe eventually a synthesis of Arabic and these local languages).

Not that Sanskrit wasn't still used, and not that both of those languages weren't heavily influenced by Sanskrit.

Even so, it's most likely these regions even if Islamized, via trade, will most likely keep a lot of vedic traditions, who knows this might spread to the Muslims in the north of the Subcontinent. (Who I assume are nowhere near majority anywhere in the 11th century, except maybe Sindh and Peshewar).

Indicus · Oct 4, 2015

Practical Lobster said:
By the eighth century it looks like Kannada had become predominant in the southwest, and by the seventh or so, Telugu in the southeast. It's tough to tell, but I think Islam spread by merchants would probably use these local languages (and Arabic, and maybe eventually a synthesis of Arabic and these local languages).

Not that Sanskrit wasn't still used, and not that both of those languages weren't heavily influenced by Sanskrit.

True. Even in the north, Sanskrit fell out of use among merchants and the like and in its place grew Prakrit.

If traders convert the Shudras and the untouchables before the nobility do so, we'll see Indo-Islamic culture based upon Prakrit rather than Sanskrit or Persian.

Ridwan Asher · Oct 4, 2015

If we want to have Islam spread to India through trade rather then conquest, it's best to do it from the south.

The problem is to weaken the political grip of hinduism in southern India, which never really happened historically in the region where post-Buddhist vedic revival current has always been the strongest.

Badshah · Oct 4, 2015

As others have said, from the South would be the best way to accomplish this; from the north you are inherently bringing in greater foreign influences that are more Persianate in nature. From the South, things would be more Indonesian in nature. Hell even in the Persianate Golconda court, Telegu was a major language of culture.

Shahrasayr · Oct 4, 2015

I agree with the majority of people that the best way to have a more "Indianized" Islam is through the south, most probably under the Rashtrakuta dynasty who propagated Kannada culture a lot.

But there was trade in the north as well. Islam could as easily be appropriated by the Gujurati traders who used to trade across the Arabian sea with Oman for pearls. From there the religion spreads through the rest of India, most of it being spread in Gujurati. When it reaches places like Patna in Bihar it could very be easily be adopted as the lingua franca of the Muslim community.