Make modern democracy a fad .

How can democracy as we know it become a passing fad of the late 1700`s and early 1800`s ?And what kind of government replaces them ,parliamentary monarchy ,socialist governments ,or a totally new kind of government .
The best .Count of Crisco :)
 
I don't really know how you could make it a "fad", as in a passing thing without massivly toying with economic, social and political conceptions present before.

What you could have in replacement would be a mix of strong/charismatic-man rule and HM's government, à la Nappie III in its early reign : as in partial and local democracy which would still be directed from a centralized bureaucracy rather than representative. But that's just one of the possibilities : getting rid entierly of electoral/representative/democratic features would be really really hard to do.
 
Give it the Fascist treatment. Make republican democracy produce such an unambiguous, over the top evil hat it becomes taboo to consider it as a viable form of government. That should make the general historiography be that the world needs monarchs to monitor the will of the people.
 
Getting rid of the USA, or making it more oligarchic, is pretty much essential; a powerful representative-democratic state well-positioned to rule much of a whole continent is too strong to be easily got rid of. Getting rid of early constitutionalism in Europe is also probably best; it's easier to strangle representative democracy in the cradle than to have it arise and then die away.

I would argue that the development of representative democracy was a historical fluke of OTL rather than some kind of inevitable march of progress. The idea of institutions initially created to serve the interests of the nobility against the monarchy expanding to not only give a bit of representation to the wealthy middle classes but be dominated by them is the key thing that has to be got rid of; once that has happened, it's not so much of a dramatic change to gradually reduce the amount of wealth a commoner needs to be represented. But that development, with wealthy lowborn people getting into and taking over institutions created for the highborn and siding with them against royal power, was hardly inevitable; this is why I so despise it when people create AHs where there's a traditional noble/royal state which "reforms" and automatically becomes a representative-democratic state, as if this is just "what happens" as expected. Even for most of the 19th century in OTL, even in the United Kingdom, the House of Lords was the house that supplied the leader of the country, not the House of Commons. Have the nobility be more strongly represented than representatives of the boroughs in early councils/assemblies/parliaments at the time of the Industrial Revolution, cracking down on those for fear of irrelevance, and we could reasonably see the development of centralised bureaucracy under royal control be supported by the rising middle classes (well, upper-middle classes—principally wealthy merchants, factory-owners and those of that sort) as the way for them to be able to achieve positions of power, as opposed to aristocratic-dominated parliaments. Without existing representative-democratic states, and with the general tendency of revolutions to be dominated by charismatic revolutionary leaders who can easily choose authoritarianism, I don't think such an ideology is likely to spring out of the blue.

If one wants a later PoD where representative democracy exists and is powerful, but then fails, it's probably still necessary to avoid the existence of the USA—stable representative-democratic states aren't useful here. Economic crises can lead to the rise of authoritarian governments, as we saw in much of Europe in the inter-war era. Have a big WW2-esque war be won by an authoritarian alliance and one can easily imagine the developed world be dominated by authoritarian left-wing or authoritarian right-wing regimes, rather than representative democracies. If the USA had stayed isolationist, this would have been the case for most of Europe even in OTL, dominated by Stalinism after the defeat of National Socialism. Make North America as poor and riddled with oligarchy and instability as OTL South America, and make any parts of the Americas that are as developed as Europe not have the exceptionally long and stable representative-democratic tradition that the USA has (which isn't too hard—the USA is the exception rather than the rule) and it shouldn't be too hard to have a developed world where representative democracy is close to non-existent and therefore a developing world where, upon gaining independence, leaders have no particular incentive to create representative-democratic institutions. Even if you want to keep the USA, just give it enough economic trouble and prevent the early death of the socialist movement, so you can get some right-wing dictatorship (with a MacArthur-esque figure in charge, backed by organised religion and big business figures) to take power out of fear of socialism in a 'failure of democracy' when there was electoral gridlock or fear of leftist electoral victory.

The victory of the USA's political tradition throughout much of the world, driven by the Second World War and the Cold War, is hardly an inevitability.
 
I certainly think limiting the spread of demcoracy is possible, though tough.

But making it a fad, when it's the natural outgrowth in lots of places? Sure the English parliament was surprisingly aristocratic, but the Italian and Dutch republics had shown the capabilities of Bourgeois-driven states long before that turned into democracy.
 
I certainly think limiting the spread of demcoracy is possible, though tough.

But making it a fad, when it's the natural outgrowth in lots of places? Sure the English parliament was surprisingly aristocratic, but the Italian and Dutch republics had shown the capabilities of Bourgeois-driven states long before that turned into democracy.

Having the Dutch be defeated isn't impossible. The Italian city-states need not have been as successful as they were and in any case representative democracy there is hardly the same as representative democracy in most of Europe. Those states could have easily remained isolated, fairly insignificant cases (in an industrial era) in a world dominated by authoritarianism, and they may never have expanded the franchise to poorer people.

The English parliament wasn't "surprisingly" aristocratic; being not aristocratic was the surprising thing. It's perfectly understandable for the aristocracy to force concessions upon the monarchy that lead to institutions designed to protect the interests of the aristocracy at the expense of the monarchy.

I don't see how representative democracy (and for these purposes I would count systems where there are substantial barriers to the franchise based on wealth as still representative-democratic, as long as there aren't such barriers based purely on class, forbidding commoners and allowing only aristocrats) is supposed to be a 'natural outgrowth' in most places. On the contrary, in most of Europe (including England) it developed with the aid of multiple violent revolutions, either successful thanks to force or successful thanks to concessions given by the authorities out of fear of force, which would be unlikely to adopt it if there hadn't already been examples to inspire it, because of the general authoritarian trend of revolutions—getting rid of the existing political system by force and dispersing opponents through violence, under the leadership of a charismatic man, does not lend itself to peaceful toleration of opponents and that charismatic leader giving up all its power as the usual outcome of violent revolution. The USA's representative-democratic institutions wouldn't have existed if there hadn't already been representative-democratic colonial assemblies, which wouldn't have existed if there hadn't been their predecessors in England, et cetera. I'll be impressed if you can show me how representative democracy was a 'natural outgrowth' of existing systems in pre-revolutionary France, Spain or Germany.

In general I have very little faith in the idea of an inevitable march of progress. Don't mistake me, I like representative democracy, but I also like Star Wars and that doesn't mean I think it was destined to be anywhere near as successful as it was.
 
Well, it did have to be a fad of the 1700's and early 1800's.

If you start cutting away before that, sure, you might be able to stop democracy, but by 1750 you're way too late to turn the Dutch and Italians into 'basically nothing much' (especially added to the various German republics, even if those hadn't amounted to much since 1450 or so).

And I call the English parliament suprisingly aristocratic in the sense of a very important, almost ruling parliament - plenty of advisory councils were mostly aristocratic, but I can only think of the Polish-Lithuanian Sejm and English Parliament as actually ´ruling´. The French Estates-General went the way of the aristocratic dodo rather quick when given a chance to actually rule something.
 

tenthring

Banned
Political power flows from military power. States that need masses of relatively untrained men in their military (or supporting it logistically) get political power. People who can't contribute to defense get none.

As a classic example, in times and place where heavy cavalry dominates you get aristocracies, since only nobles can afford to maintain heavy cavalry and train all day.

In times and places where heavy infantry is dominate (phalanxes, legions) you tend to get a more middle class semi-representative government (about 25% of Spartan population voted, Roman citizens had tribunes and such).

In times and places where you just need lots of common people that don't need to own a lot of expensive equipment you get more democratic governments (Athens needed thete oarsmen).

From the beginning of the industrial revolution up though the information age mass conscription armies (give someone a rifle and six weeks basic training) was a dominant military force. Further the logistics of modern warfare involved the entire population. When the whole population is needed to fight a war the entire population tends to get represented in some way.

As Napoleon used to say, "quantity has a quality all its own." Limited representation requires that small elite units have massive force multipliers versus non-elite units.

And that's the ultimate question as we've gone from the industrial to the information age. When you can program a drone with a gatling gun to mow people down by the thousands, are we once again in an era where regular people aren't the dominant military asset. Heck, you don't even need to convince the guy with the machine gun to pull the trigger on his countrymen (a classic failing point for many regimes), a computer does it for you automatically.

As it stands we get our natural resources from non-democracies and our manufactured goods from the world's largest non-democracy (over 1B people and the 2nd highest GDP). Who knows what the future holds. Personally, I think the fact that the masses have lower economic and military value then they did a few decades ago explains part of why they seem to get the short of the of stick policy wise.

One other X factor is that morale and psychology have always been military assets. The church got its 10% because it could convince people to fight and behave in certain orderly ways. Today a lot of dominance lies in shaping public opinion, and we have a variety of "clerics", religious and secular, whose job is to make people behave a certain way. They get a cut too as they always have.
 
Smart people want to affect their own lives and usually will find a way to make it so. As literacy spreads and therefore education spreads, it gets increasingly difficult for some form of democracy to not take hold. The question really then becomes how broadly is representation spread and via what institutions.

Also, the legacy of Athens and Rome makes the concept of it being a fad unlikely. The leading thinkers of the enlightenment, inspired by Greek and Roman writers, have more than enough inspiration to ensure the concept of democracy resides, if only as a concept.
 
Smart people want to affect their own lives and usually will find a way to make it so. As literacy spreads and therefore education spreads, it gets increasingly difficult for some form of democracy to not take hold. The question really then becomes how broadly is representation spread and via what institutions.

Also, the legacy of Athens and Rome makes the concept of it being a fad unlikely. The leading thinkers of the enlightenment, inspired by Greek and Roman writers, have more than enough inspiration to ensure the concept of democracy resides, if only as a concept.
Whilst I agree that the legacy of Athens and Rome makes it being a fad an impossibility (indeed its hard to say something didn't work and critique it effectively when you are also idolising it in the case of most european Monarchs) there are ways for a non-democratic but "representative" system to unfold. Something like Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's view of monarchism meeting classical liberal theory as the bastion of liberty rather than the normal democratic means could reasonably happen.

BUT this does presume a tl in which democratic republics have proven poorly in this field... or perhaps republics in general.
 

tenthring

Banned
Smart people want to affect their own lives and usually will find a way to make it so. As literacy spreads and therefore education spreads, it gets increasingly difficult for some form of democracy to not take hold. The question really then becomes how broadly is representation spread and via what institutions.

Also, the legacy of Athens and Rome makes the concept of it being a fad unlikely. The leading thinkers of the enlightenment, inspired by Greek and Roman writers, have more than enough inspiration to ensure the concept of democracy resides, if only as a concept.

Neither of these systems had what we would call democracy today, and many of the ancient authors that wrote about Athens saw its democracy as a failure.

Democracy in general both as a political form and as a cultural idea was debated rather fiercely during the enlightenment and opinion was pretty split. Some people wanted to eat away at the power of the aristocracy (which was also seen as incompetent), but many of those same people didn't want the masses wielding power and influence.

Let's not forget that most of these enlightenment conflicts were between groups in the upper classes of society, and the mob taking over was seen as a left field development nobody wanted (see French Revolution for best examples).
 
Whilst I agree that the legacy of Athens and Rome makes it being a fad an impossibility (indeed its hard to say something didn't work and critique it effectively when you are also idolising it in the case of most european Monarchs) there are ways for a non-democratic but "representative" system to unfold. Something like Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's view of monarchism meeting classical liberal theory as the bastion of liberty rather than the normal democratic means could reasonably happen.

BUT this does presume a tl in which democratic republics have proven poorly in this field... or perhaps republics in general.

Neither of these systems had what we would call democracy today, and many of the ancient authors that wrote about Athens saw its democracy as a failure.

Democracy in general both as a political form and as a cultural idea was debated rather fiercely during the enlightenment and opinion was pretty split. Some people wanted to eat away at the power of the aristocracy (which was also seen as incompetent), but many of those same people didn't want the masses wielding power and influence.

Let's not forget that most of these enlightenment conflicts were between groups in the upper classes of society, and the mob taking over was seen as a left field development nobody wanted (see French Revolution for best examples).

I dont have much disagreement with either of these points. But when you combine it with my first point, they both become a lot more powerful. Educated people, in an era where access to education is steadily increasing, possessing the idea of democracy. YMMV.
 
Have George Washington be more power-hungry (and longer-lived): he decides to run again for President in 1796, and survives to run in 1800 as well, so there is no precedent established for only two terms in office. The United States consequently degenerates into a quasi-dictatorial regime in which Presidents regularly hold office for decades. Coupled with the example of Napoleon in France, it becomes conventional wisdom across the globe that a strongman is needed in every country for "stability".
 

RousseauX

Donor
Neither of these systems had what we would call democracy today, and many of the ancient authors that wrote about Athens saw its democracy as a failure.

Democracy in general both as a political form and as a cultural idea was debated rather fiercely during the enlightenment and opinion was pretty split. Some people wanted to eat away at the power of the aristocracy (which was also seen as incompetent), but many of those same people didn't want the masses wielding power and influence.

Let's not forget that most of these enlightenment conflicts were between groups in the upper classes of society, and the mob taking over was seen as a left field development nobody wanted (see French Revolution for best examples).

The big difference between Athens and the 19th century is that a higher % of the people were literate and giving them a vote was a good way of making sure they don't adopt more radical ideologies. The aristocracy would rather lose some power than being hung.

And remember even as late as 1900 Britain only had something like 10-15% of the population living on the home islands had the vote.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Political power flows from military power. States that need masses of relatively untrained men in their military (or supporting it logistically) get political power. People who can't contribute to defense get none.

As a classic example, in times and place where heavy cavalry dominates you get aristocracies, since only nobles can afford to maintain heavy cavalry and train all day.

In times and places where heavy infantry is dominate (phalanxes, legions) you tend to get a more middle class semi-representative government (about 25% of Spartan population voted, Roman citizens had tribunes and such).

I don't think that's actually to be true the closer you get to modern times, the evolution of democracy and rule of law in England for example was closely related to the need to raise money for the armed forces with the consent of the nobility for example.
 
Here is what I am thinking .The American revolution is fought and sees the birth of a new nation ,Which quickly cant decide on or agree on anything .The young country is split apart due regional and societal differences and quickly Balkanizes .Thus most governments say that putting the will of the people in complete control is a horrible idea .Democracy developes but as a form of monarchy where the King/Queen shares power with a prime minister or some other elected official .
What the Netherlands had was not a government of the masses but a sort of sharing of power by those with the money to get power .
 
Here is what I am thinking .The American revolution is fought and sees the birth of a new nation ,Which quickly cant decide on or agree on anything .The young country is split apart due regional and societal differences and quickly Balkanizes .Thus most governments say that putting the will of the people in complete control is a horrible idea .Democracy developes but as a form of monarchy where the King/Queen shares power with a prime minister or some other elected official .
What the Netherlands had was not a government of the masses but a sort of sharing of power by those with the money to get power .
I think the issue is that even a Balkanizing of the America's isn't enough to "disprove" the democratic case. My understanding of early American history was that whilst a sense of unity did exist, it was a unity of different States (capital S) over 1 state with multiple divisions, the latter becoming more concrete an idea after the civil war.
Even in this case, 1 success story amongst a balkanised US is all it takes to prove the democratic experiment can work.

Really it has to be something that completely demonises democracy to make it not happen, or it needs to be dwarfed/obviously flawed compared to a more dominant model.

Examples of the former include the Cold War: The USSR only lasted 70 odd years, a very limited time in the history of ideology and yet in its small time has discredited itself so utterly that only fringe groups in developed countries would ever desire such a system to ever arise again, and even more so is a "free" version of said system thought of in general as utopian fancy and so beyond the realm of possibility as not to be taken seriously. It is hard to point to any 1 communist country as succesful as the ones which are still around today are communist in name only and the "better" communist countries (e.g. Yugoslavia has a soft spot on this forum) didn't demonstrate any long term survivability.

Examples of the latter include Enlightened Absolutism: A real challenger to the ideals of democratic representation which simply put fell flat on its face. The rise of democratic powers like the UK made what was already an ideologically malnourished challenge virtually pointless. More importantly, it never really came into it's own being properly defined long after it had already lost (in the 1800's) and much of it's more interesting and articulated proponents arrived at a time which was far too late.

To some extent a Balkanised US in this context is already too late as the UK is already showing how effective democracy can be.
 
You best opportunity for democracy to fall apart is for the ARW to follow the same progression as the French Revolution. Tories get retribution, Washington becomes a dictator, etc. Pretty out of character for Washington though.

Maybe Benedict Arnold stays loyal, becomes the major war hero, and surpasses Washington to become first president. Power goes to his head, voila. I dont know a lot about Arnold so have no idea if this is in the realm of possibility.

The one thing the US had going for it was that it was a revolt against a distant power. The Soviets and French had to deal with their own countrymen first and foremost, and their external enemies who feared their new regime were next door. If democracy takes hold somewhere else initially, it wouldnt have an opportunity to peacefully incubate the way it did in the US and therefore never become a beacon of idealism.
 
In the broad trend of history, how do we know that it isn't? Or that, if it lasts for several hundred more years, it isn't only a regional anomaly?
 
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