Charles V - emperor of Christendom ?

Disclaimer regarding title - no, it's not about ALL Christian states, there will obviously be exceptions

With that out of the way...

As John Greene humorously puts it, Charles V was pretty much a genetic engineering job designed to produce a ruler of Spain and Germany, cooked up in the Duchy of Burgundy's "laboratory of alchemical research"

His heritage meant that large parts of Spain, Italy and Germany either belonged to him directly or were closely tied to him:

charles V.jpg

Some of the main problems he faced in his rule though were his precarious financial position (which came about due to having to cough up enough doe to secure his election as Holy Roman Emperor and because he could't really tax his new German feudal subjects), the beginning of the Protestant Reformation or the threat of Suleiman in the east.

The biggest problem by far though was his struggle against France's King Francis I, which consumed way, waaaay too much of his time, strength and money.

So, the point of this thread - how can we make Charles as powerful as possible?

The solution is pretty simple ... roll drums.... have him become King of France as well! (that or at least his son)

Whilst young and still in Burgundy, he was engaged to two of Francis I's daughters, who however both died young. Suppose one of them doesn't, and they marry and produce a viable son, whom he calls Philip (like OTL with Isabella of Portugal).

Then, should Francisc fail to produce a male heir that survives into late adulthood, this should give Charles' son a pretty strong claim. So, at an ATL Battle of Pavia analogue, Francisc is wounded and killed instead of captured as OTL, and Charles then marches into France to install his son as King. Sure, there would be resistance, probably prolonged, but Charles would have the advantage of being more-or-less culturally French and of having a powerful army at his back.

As fortune has it, either Isabella of Portugal or Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (and their respective lands) are eligible around this time, both of which would make a perfect match for his brother Ferdinand.

With the British on the other side of the Channel and Suleiman smart enough to realize a lost cause when he sees it, there isn't really anyone who could challenge Charles. Throw in some sort of averted Reformation, or keep it within the Church and have Charles be its Champion (and him getting his very own puppet Pope and all), and hey presto - western Europe is reunited and at peace.

Charles's son Philip would inherit ALL of his father's titles, and he would pass ALL of them down to his son and so on, with Ferdinand and his many offspring providing enough family members which can be sent to govern various duchies/areas etc.

What might this re-united "Roman Empire" look like in the short, medium and long run?

Might somewhere in Switzerland make an optimal 'eastern' capital for the Emperor? (with Valladolid in Spain being the 'western' one)

Is there any chance we might see some convergence of languages?

What about technological progress, now that cities aren't getting periodically sacked any more?

How might a reformed Catholicism look like and develop? Would Britain and Scandinavia again opt to separate themselves from Rome in order to secure their independence?

And finally, would TTL be 'better' than ours wrt development of human civilization ?

charles V.jpg
 

RavenMM

Banned
I can't even imagine how hard it would be, herding all these cats....

well, I think it will be very unstable... which would lead to strong decentralization. But if it stays together for some time... europe will be much better off.
 
Considering the French laws of succession, Charles V would actually not have a very good claim. He would have to conquer the Kingdom of France outright in pursuit of his "claim."
 
Actually if it had been the case, a Bourbon would have had the throne.
Truly France was a juggernaut, to resist so much power.
I think we could rather split it on a North/South basis : meanwhile France, italy and Spain would have their capital in Southern France (Aix-en-Provence looks more suited to me than Marseille in terms of standing, but Marseille is a port, so better connections), the North would have it in one of the imperial cities - I suggest Wien is a good location for North of the Empire.
 
Considering the French laws of succession, Charles V would actually not have a very good claim. He would have to conquer the Kingdom of France outright in pursuit of his "claim."
Philip in this case would have a claim equivalent to Edward III of England's. Slight points in favor might be that the family tree of the senior Capetians is a bit sparser than two centuries earlier, and that Philip would be the heir to not just Valois-Angoulême, but also Valois-Burgundy, but Salic law unambiguously says the throne should pass to the Bourbons.

And with France tied so much closer together in the sixteenth century than in the fourteenth, exercising power there while being both an extralegal heir and beholden to foreign interests is not going to be easy.
 
It was far too late to have some kind of Christian empire last.

The more you could have was some kind of terrible mess of crowns union.

It was the age of printing that enabled diverse national identities to become much more self-conscious and assertive and religious differenciations.

Now if you want to reach this level, the best would be a marriage between a male french Valois, heir of the throne of France, and a female Habsburg heir of Charles V's kingdoms and principalities.

When you just consider geography, you just can't miss the fact that France is the obvious and necessary center for such an empire.
 
That sounds like a really interesting TL idea. With the Protestant reformation staying internal there is much less to divide the kingdom. However Britain could split off in a national church if the Holy Roman Empire controls the pope too much. Maybe Scandinavia does as well.
 
It was far too late to have some kind of Christian empire last.

The more you could have was some kind of terrible mess of crowns union.

It was the age of printing that enabled diverse national identities to become much more self-conscious and assertive and religious differenciations.

Now if you want to reach this level, the best would be a marriage between a male french Valois, heir of the throne of France, and a female Habsburg heir of Charles V's kingdoms and principalities.

When you just consider geography, you just can't miss the fact that France is the obvious and necessary center for such an empire.


IDK, *Phillip and his successors could use the same printing to promote their own regime and try and go for something of an over-arching identity that would bind upper-class nobles and wealthy merchants from Prussia to Portugal

Remember, it was only around this time that the French language apparently became standardized, whilst the issue with Salic Law is not as insurmountable IMO -if I'm not mistaken, Salic Law was only expressly mentioned as a reason to deny someone their claim later than this. True, it was a powerful custom, but not one that would overwrite the self-preservation instinct and greed of the barons IMO.



That sounds like a really interesting TL idea. With the Protestant reformation staying internal there is much less to divide the kingdom. However Britain could split off in a national church if the Holy Roman Empire controls the pope too much. Maybe Scandinavia does as well.

That's my thinking as well. Perhaps this splitting could serve as a further tool to integrate Charles's domains, since nothing breeds cohesion more than a us vs them mentality
 
I would not bet on it. Someone as powerful as Louis XIV could not break the rules of succession to the throne, although he wanted to have his bastards in the Line of succession to prevent any extinction of his bloodline.

The Salic law had become the most unbreakable rule of the french kingdom.
 
I'm pretty sure it was the basis for the Hundred Years' War.

Yes and no. The English claim was non-existant under salic law and not the senior one without it. The Burgundy-Navarre claim was senior if one ignores the salic law (which was unearthed specifically to deny it and give the throne to the brother of the king rather than his daughter; the english claims comes through the sister of said king).
 
Surely Chuckie 5 deserved the whole world on a space bat plate. And seriously, isn't Europe too annoyingly ununIfiable?

And it was so much too much herding cats that he broke up with what he had.

With luck he could he could have Britain through the Spanish invasion.
 
Yes and no. The English claim was non-existant under salic law and not the senior one without it. The Burgundy-Navarre claim was senior if one ignores the salic law (which was unearthed specifically to deny it and give the throne to the brother of the king rather than his daughter; the english claims comes through the sister of said king).
Ah, forgot about Joan as a legitimate heir. Thanks.
 
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