A batch of real history questions -

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?

2) Did Russians invading the Ottoman Empire in the 18th and 19th century cite Crusader antecedents, or no antecedents except anti-Ottoman ones from Romanov/Muscovite history?

2) I know that Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian and Armenian are closer to the eastern, Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European languages. Are the Slavic languages linguistically closer to Indo-Iranian, or to the language groups to their west, Germanic, Baltic, Greek, Romance, Gaelic?

3) How long did the Abbasid Caliphate last as a relatively centralized state under Arab rulers rather than effectively separate states under the rule or Turkic, or Circassian slave soldiers?
 
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?

2) Did Russians invading the Ottoman Empire in the 18th and 19th century cite Crusader antecedents, or no antecedents except anti-Ottoman ones from Romanov/Muscovite history?

2) I know that Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian and Armenian are closer to the eastern, Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European languages. Are the Slavic languages linguistically closer to Indo-Iranian, or to the language groups to their west, Germanic, Baltic, Greek, Romance, Gaelic?

3) How long did the Abbasid Caliphate last as a relatively centralized state under Arab rulers rather than effectively separate states under the rule or Turkic, or Circassian slave soldiers?

On 2b, I know that some linguists posit a familial relationship between the Slavic and the Baltic languages. I don't know beyond that.

On 3, the Abbasid state fell apart in the mid-10th century when the Shi'ite Buyids took Baghdad. The caliphs were then "liberated" by the Seljuks about a century later, and more or less under their control until the Seljuk empire collapses towards the end of the 12th century. Then there's kind of a revival of an Abbasid state in Mesopotamia and western Iran in the early 13th century until it gets destroyed by the Mongols.
 
2) Did Russians invading the Ottoman Empire in the 18th and 19th century cite Crusader antecedents, or no antecedents except anti-Ottoman ones from Romanov/Muscovite history?

Russian invasions of the OE cited more its Greek Orthodox religion and 'Third Rome' ideology (which posited that Russian Orthodoxy was the 'true' Christianity) than from Catholic Crusading doctrine which, of course, was schismatic even in the 11thC.

In the 18thC, Catherine the Great described her wars against the OE as a 'liberation of Hellas' and 'freeing Constantinople' was always a justification in these goals. 19thC Slavophilism saw the 'Russian soul' as being not only Christian, but something unique from Catholicism and Protestantism entirely, the latter being corrupted by the Enlightenment.

That said, the Russian reaction against the British/French participation in the Crimean War was definitely one of betrayal, the Russians accusing the Westerners of siding with Muslims in the 'battle for the Lord's cradle'; Dostoyevsky himself called it a 'crucifixion of the Russian Christ'. So while Russia had her own Orthodox justifications for war with the OE, they clearly imagined that the Westerners would project their own Crusading histories in viewing such a war.
 
2) I know that Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian and Armenian are closer to the eastern, Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European languages. Are the Slavic languages linguistically closer to Indo-Iranian, or to the language groups to their west, Germanic, Baltic, Greek, Romance, Gaelic?

General agreement seems to be on the latter. As another poster said the Slavic languages are closely related to the Baltic, and on all the proposed charts of the breakup of Indo-European I've seen they're always a branch on the German-Italian-Celtic side.

Greek seems to be the European Indo-European language that's the odd man out.
 
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?

I can`t answer for the South slavs in your question, but as for Poles and Hungarians, as far as I understand, they did not take part too much in Levantine crusades.

There is a multiple of reasons, but a very key one would be the continued existence of non Christians right on their frontier, and even among them.

Poland only officially converted to Christianity a little more than a century before the first Crusade, and only 60 years previous, Poland suffered a Pagan revolt in the 1030s. Hungary only officially converted at the turn of the millenium, and Bela I of Hungary had to suppress Pagan anti-Christian mobs using his army in the 1060s.

Both being on the border of the steppe, they were also constantly attacked by non-Christian nomads such as the Pechenegs and the Tengrism practicing Cumans. Not to mention the Mongols.

The Poles had to also deal with their northern and eastern Pagan neighbours such as the Prussians, Pommeranians, Lithuanians, etc.

Both Kingdoms were simply too busy fighting non-Christians already, and that wasn`t when they were having some civil war or another.

Notably, Hungary did get in on the Crusading spirit for a while, but against the Ottomans when they invaded the Balkans.

The Poles, on the other hand, sort of soured on the whole Crusade thing when they fought enough wars with the Teutonic Knights (who themselves had been invited by the Polish duke of Masovia to fight the Pagan Prussians)
 
About Hungary,they were involved in the Crusades in the Middle East,especially the Sixth Crusade,where they provided one of the largest contingents.
 
2) I know that Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian and Armenian are closer to the eastern, Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European languages. Are the Slavic languages linguistically closer to Indo-Iranian, or to the language groups to their west, Germanic, Baltic, Greek, Romance, Gaelic?

It's funny, Indo-European is by far the most intensively studied language family on Earth, with scholarship stretching back more than 2 centuries, and yet there is still no consensus on the internal configuration of its branches.

As other posters noted, the Slavic branch is routinely grouped with the Baltic branch in a Balto-Slavic group to the exclusion of other branches. Using the classical Stammbaum model of language families, this would suggest a period when ancestral Slavs and Balts spoke one language, which first diverged into two separate speech communities - Proto-Slavic and Proto-Baltic - and thence into the modern Slavic and Baltic languages. But some linguists have posited that there's no special genetic relationship between the two; rather, after their split from Proto-Indo-European, they spent a prolonged period of contact with each other wherein various linguistic features came to be shared by the two groups through mutual influence, rather than inheritance. Additionally, there is a theory that these languages should be viewed as 3 original speech communities: Proto-Slavic, Proto-East-Baltic, and Proto-West Baltic. East Baltic went on to become the Latvian and Lithuanian languages, along with smaller varieties such as Latgalian, while West Baltic went on to become the Prussian language and other minority languages of the southern Baltic shore, but is now extinct. Linguists currently generally favor a genetic explanation for Balto-Slavic resemblance, but the contact explanation, as well as the tripartite theory, have their supporters.

Regarding Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian, and Armenian - Ossetian (and its ancestor, Alan) is classified as an Eastern Iranian langage, close to the Yagnobi language still spoken in Tajikistan, and somewhat more distantly to the Pamiri and Pashto languages of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Scythian and Sarmatian, though poorly attested, are undoubtedly Iranian, though they may fit into various parts of the Iranian branch because "Scythian" and "Sarmatian" may have encompassed multiple languages. Armenian, however, despite a long history of influence from Iranian (and some non-Indo-European) languages, is classified as its own branch within Indo-European. In fact, its closest living genetic relative may be Greek, based on various features it still shares with the Greek language. It's possible that Greek, Armenian, and the Indo-Iranian languages shared some period of common development.
 
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?

Serbia was briefly allied to the Holy Roman Empire of Frederick Barbarossa, (and Bulgaria was too, IIRC). It assisted the crusading army's passage through the Balkans and they attacked the Byzantine Empire together - Serbia because it wanted to expand and achieve full independence, Barbarossa because the Angeloi were uncooperative and hostile towards his crusaders. So OTL's particular way in which Serbia and Bulgaria achieved full independence was related to the Third Crusade...but their alliance with Barbarossa pretty much ended when he finally made peace with the Byzantines, and they didn't really have anything to do with the Levant itself.
 
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?
Only in a superficial manner for Serbs, Russians and Bulgarians
Definitely more for Hungarians, Bohemians and Poles.

Mostly because Crusades were based on Western Christianity societal and political models, such as milites/feudal nobility (especially for the First and Fourth) or a royal power itself based on it (more or less all the other Crusades led by kings).

More close central medieval states were latinised and "feudalized" (in lack of a better word), more chances to see them participe in a Crusade (it's especially obvious with Bohemia, that joined up regularly enough)

(Not that dreadnought jenkins' answer is flatly wrong, though I disagree with some points, but I don't think strategical situation was the only answer. After all Hungary did importantly participate. I'd favour as much if not more the social and cultural part personally)

For Hungary, you have Geza joining up with Barbarossa in the Third Crusade, the huge participation in the Fifth Crusade with Andrew (which probably involved Croatians, as it was a part of his dominion), and of course at the Battle of Nicopolis (which, incidentally, involved Bulgarians, but more like Byzantine Empire was involved in the First Crusade than crusading themselves) or Varna Crusade (though it's not exactly a Levantine Crusade)

Poland was involved, but on a limited manner and probably joining up more closely with HRE while the bulk of their forces was focused on Baltic region in the same time.
But I think they were present in the Second and Third Crusade.

Bohemia was well, but in a more important number, not being focused on Wendes, but merged with HRE contingents.

3) How long did the Abbasid Caliphate last as a relatively centralized state under Arab rulers rather than effectively separate states under the rule or Turkic, or Circassian slave soldiers?
Most of post-Abbassid states weren't saqaliba-states. That's more true for political entities bordering the limits of the Arabo-Islamic world (as Persia), but that's definitely not the case for Omayyad Spain, Tulunid Egypt, Muhallabid or Aghlabid Ifriqiya, Samanid Central Asia, Sajid Caucasus, Tahirid Persia, Hamdanid Levant, etc.

I'm not really sure centralized really fit what the Abbasid Caliphate was, would it be to avoid the confusion with a modern centralized state.

Now you certainly had centralizing features (such as an increasing bureaucracy), but the claning and tribal features played fully and these centralizing features only fed up the autonomist tendencies that already existed under Umayyad dynasty : governors were hereditary rulers de facto, had a large clientele and support locally, and while acknowledging the Caliphe as their overlord, ceased to entierly or totally giving him income.

Adding to that Shia's and slaves' revolts...
Eventually the point is not it ceased to be bureaucratic, than it was too troubled to really enact centralized features on the long run, with the middle of IXth century being certainly a turning point, even if it recovered partially, as they fell eventually under Persian Shia's state domination.
 
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Riain

Banned
Hungarian Prince Geza and 2000 troops accompanied Barby's army in the Third Crusade. When Barby died Geza was ordered back to Hungary by his father but stayed on with Freddy of Swabia to campaign in the Levant.

I think Hungary's problem is that after the 3rd Crusade all others travelled by sea and thus bypassed Hungary, so it missed being swept up in the hype as armies passed by/though.
 
Georgians fully planned to participate in one of the later crusades (Fifth?) but one of Genghis Khan's armies wiped out the Georgian army first.
 
1) Did Europeans from east of the HRE take part in Levantine Crusading? Poles, Hungarians, Russians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians? Why, why not?

2) Did Russians invading the Ottoman Empire in the 18th and 19th century cite Crusader antecedents, or no antecedents except anti-Ottoman ones from Romanov/Muscovite history?

2) I know that Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan/Ossetian and Armenian are closer to the eastern, Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European languages. Are the Slavic languages linguistically closer to Indo-Iranian, or to the language groups to their west, Germanic, Baltic, Greek, Romance, Gaelic?

3) How long did the Abbasid Caliphate last as a relatively centralized state under Arab rulers rather than effectively separate states under the rule or Turkic, or Circassian slave soldiers?

1) As for Russians - definitely no. At least there is not a slightest evidence for that, not a single one.
Why? Hm, if Pope of Rome decided to send someone somewhere it is none of our business (that was what the Russians thought, I guess).
Idea of Crusade was alien to the Russians, I guess even if Patriarch of Constantinople had tried to call the Russians to free Jerusalem from the Muslims he would have met total misunderstanding from their part. When the Russians helped the Byzantines to fight against the Muslims it was for hard cash or something like that.

2) Crusader antecedents? - No. Never ever.
The Russians were true Orthodox warriors. The Crusaders followed the call of Pope of Rome who is a repulsive schismatic and generally quite a disgusting fella.

3) For a Slavic speaking person all the languages you mentioned are equally unintelligible. Even the scientists are not too sure which language is closer and which is further.
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
jlk7e
On 3, the Abbasid state fell apart in the mid-10th century when the Shi'ite Buyids took Baghdad.

I've often heard that the Persia was predominantly Sunni until the Safavid adoption and institutionalization of Twelver Shi'ism. But this ignores the Buyids, who emerged when almost all the dynasties from Tunisia to Persia were Shiite. Perhaps some or all the intervening dynasties in Persia were Sunni however.

Were the Buyids ethnic Persians, Arabs, or something else?

Profyxz -
That said, the Russian reaction against the British/French participation in the Crimean War was definitely one of betrayal, the Russians accusing the Westerners of siding with Muslims in the 'battle for the Lord's cradle'; Dostoyevsky himself called it a 'crucifixion of the Russian Christ'. So while Russia had her own Orthodox justifications for war with the OE, they clearly imagined that the Westerners would project their own Crusading histories in viewing such a war.

Well I guess the westerners eventually did, but not till 1914, sixty years after the Crimean War.

And it seems some late 18th century early 19th century Russians were not above at least a vague sense of ecumenical Christian identity, between Alexander's Holy Alliance and membership in the Knights of Malta descended from the western Catholic/Crusading tradition.

Sucrose and Qhapaq Inka, very interesting points on Greek linguistics:

Greek seems to be the European Indo-European language that's the odd man out.

It's possible that Greek, Armenian, and the Indo-Iranian languages shared some period of common development.

Wow that's interesting - there is still consensus that the Greek language arrived in Greece from the north though, not Asia Minor, right?

And actually, do we think pre-classical, Mycenaean Greek and/or Minoan were Indo-European languages?

LSCatilina (spelling corrected, oops):

Omayyad Spain-

--ethnic Arab right? Saqaliba rule over parts of Islamic Spain came only later after Cordoba/Qurtubah's fragmentation

Tulunid Egypt

--Ethnic Arab?

, Muhallabid or Aghlabid Ifriqiya

Ethnic Arab or ethnic Berber or mixed?

, Samanid Central Asia,

--ethnic Arab, Turkic or Persian?

Sajid Caucasus,

--ethnic Arab, Turkic or Persian?

Tahirid Persia,

--ethnic Arab, Turkic or Persian?

Hamdanid Levant, etc.

----ethnic Arab, Turkic or Persian?

Eventually the point is not it ceased to be bureaucratic, than it was too troubled to really enact centralized features on the long run, with the middle of IXth century being certainly a turning point, even if it recovered partially, as they fell eventually under Persian Shia's state domination.

So basically, is it fair to say that Arabs effectively ruled lands outside of Arabia only from 636 to 861, when the Anarchy of Samarra began, a period of not quite 250 years, and then after that, dynasties in the fertile crescent and Egypt were Turkic, Kurdish, Circassian, Mongol or Crusader until the Hashemites were assisted in gaining Jordan and Iraq after WWI?

...and Egypt arguably wasn't Arab controlled until the Free Officers revolt of the 1950s? (or could we argue that although Muhammad Ali was Albanian, in terms of self-perceived identity, and perhaps in terms of prime ministers and matrilineal contributions, Egypt became an Arab state during the era of the khedive?)

For most of the period between 861 and 1924, a millennium basically, Arabs were hardly ever political rulers (except for in Yemen, Oman, the Nejd, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait and the Hejaz - basically all on the Arabian peninsula) in the Middle East -North Africa region?

Russian:
When the Russians helped the Byzantines to fight against the Muslims it was for hard cash or something like that.

Well I know there was the Varangian Guard mercenaries, but are there instances of Russian mercenaries in Byzantine service after the foundation of the Kievan state in the era of Sviatoslav through Yaroslav and until the Mongol invasions? I've never heard of any.
 
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And actually, do we think pre-classical, Mycenaean Greek and/or Minoan were Indo-European languages?
Mycenaean Greek was a form of Greek, so definitely Indo-European. The only theory I've heard about the Minoan language is that it was related to Etruscan, hence not Indo-European, but AFAIK we can't glean enough information from the Linear A corpus to say anything with certainty.
 
I've often heard that the Persia was predominantly Sunni until the Safavid adoption and institutionalization of Twelver Shi'ism. But this ignores the Buyids, who emerged when almost all the dynasties from Tunisia to Persia were Shiite. Perhaps some or all the intervening dynasties in Persia were Sunni however.

The Shia'/Sunni division was less important it became later, and you have often schools "crossing" over the ideological border, with a similar closeness you had between Latin and Greek Christianities up to the XIth century : growing gap, but not really utterly divisive.

Furthermore, that ruling clans and dynasties were Shi'a doesn't mean the whole country was : it's perfectly obvious with Fatimid Egypt, for instance.

Were the Buyids ethnic Persians, Arabs, or something else?
I'm not too sure, even regarding the more important consideration Arabo-Muslim world had on ethnicity, that was the definitive feature : religious one may had been as much important.

That said, yes, they were definitely a Persian dynasty.

LSCatalina:
CatIlina, damnit!

Omayyad Spain
That's...complicated.
Al-Andalus may have been the medieval Islamic state that put more focus on ethnicity and "arabity", in no little part due to the really limited numbers of ethnic Arabs (some thousands).
Eventually Muladi rose to growing importance (especially after the revolts of the IX/Xth centuries that showed they were really fed up), but long story short : yes, Abd al Rahman was chosen as amir of Al-Andalus because Umayyads were seen as champions of Arabity as Yemenit and Levantine Arabs felt threatened by the Great Berber Revolt and Abbassid coup that could have marginalized them.

Saqaliba (which meaning is extremly board, up to the point being an equivalent of the christian "slave" without real regard on their ethnicity) ruled some taifa, but that was far more close to a mameluk state than a real defined ethnic rule.

Tulunid Egypt.
Actually, forget what I said about Tulunids, as it was definitely what was more close of a proto-mameluk state; I think I got mixed up in my notes, but I noted them as Arabs when they were clearly Turks from the Caliphal house. Sorry about that.
That said, their power wasn't that different from their immediate neighbours, so, I've still trouble calling it a saqaliba-state, when it may have been more of a adventurer-like one. Admittedly, the difference could be moot.

Muhallabid or Aghlabid Ifriqiya
Muhallabids and Aghlabids, while, originary from Khorasan (with possibly some mixing with Persians, but eventually coming from central Arabian tribes) were definitely considered as Arabs.
Giving the lower posture of Berber clans in Ifriqiya, mixing would have not been taken in consideration.

They're typical from governors being awarded with a province by Abassids, rooting there, being chased by another family favoured by Abassids that itself roots too firmly.
Ethnic Arab or ethnic Berber or mixed?

Samanid Central Asia
Persians, and quite anti-Arabs with that. They did relied on Saqaliba/Ghulam armies, but that's not enough to consider them as such, contrary to their successors as Ghaznavids.

Sajid Caucasus
Persians.

Tahirid Persia
Without surprise, Persian from Khorasan (a region that apparently given rise to a lot of "I want to be Caliph instead of the Caliph!" rants :D

Hamdanid Levant
Shia' Arabs from Iraq.

So basically, is it fair to say that Arabs effectively ruled lands outside of Arabia only from 636 to 861, when the Anarchy of Samarra began, a period of not quite 250 years, and then after that, dynasties in the fertile crescent and Egypt were Turkic, Kurdish, Circassian, Mongol or Crusader until the Hashemites were assisted in gaining Jordan and Iraq after WWI?
Dates would be wrong and more close to XIth century : Arabs, in the narrow meaning of the ethnicity, still maintained their rule on Spain up to the early XIth century, in Levant up to the late XIth (Mirdasids, Uqaylid), in Sicily up to mid XIth century (Kalbids), in the Caucasus up to XIVth century (Mazyadids).

I suppose it's generally fair to say that the period between mid Xth century and mid/late XIth century, ethnic Arabs ceased to be hegemonic in the Arabo-Islamic world.

But let's keep mind ethnicity couldn't and didn't mean the same thing in the Xth century and in the XXth century.

These states were clearly part of an Arabo-Islamic continuum and in spite of their origins, the ruling dynasties were deeply Arabized (culturally, structurally). Only looking up at the origin of the dynasty could lead to some misconceptions.

Would be Mameluk less of a...well, mameluk state because they were technically led by an Abassid of Arab origin?
Were Albanian wali of Egypt (a tradition far older than just Muhammad Ali) were less Turks for that?

I would want to take the example of Husainid and Alaouite dynasties of Tunisia and Morroco, claiming Arab ascendancy, especially as more representative of the population they ruled for Husainid (where "Arab" eventually meant "Tunisian").

So, while there's some good points, the argument should still be made carefully.
 
jlk7e
Russian:

Well I know there was the Varangian Guard mercenaries, but are there instances of Russian mercenaries in Byzantine service after the foundation of the Kievan state in the era of Sviatoslav through Yaroslav and until the Mongol invasions? I've never heard of any.

Yes, there are.

But it is usually not always clear if it is
1) a Viking who was born somewhere in Scandinavia and got into Byzantine service just moving through Rus
2) a Viking born outside Rus but who spent some time (maybe 10-20 years) in Russian service, thus got partially "Russified" (whatever it means) and only after that he got into Byzantine service.
3) a third/fourth generation offspring of a Viking whose great-grandfather got into "Rus" a hundred or so years ago which makes him a 100% genuine Rus/Russian, properly "slavified" and the like.
4) a pure Slav who calls himself and is called by others a "Rus", as he belongs to that particular Rus polity.
 
Theorized tree of Indo-European relations, as of 2014:

sn-languages672H_zps4cfymm3e.jpg


Keep in mind this is very tentative, and is quite a bit different from similar theorized trees from only 10 years ago.

Edit: Here's another one, which has the same relations. I like this one a lot:

image_2516_2-Indo-European-Languages_zpsta43xurc.jpg
 
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Theorized tree of Indo-European relations, as of 2014:

sn-languages672H_zps4cfymm3e.jpg


Keep in mind this is very tentative, and is quite a bit different from similar theorized trees from only 10 years ago.
It is indeed. Last I saw, according to an article in the Encyclopedia Britannica, there was a suggested wo-way split ("centum" v "satem") that would have grouped Hittite/Anatolian and Tocharian (also Phrygian, which isn't shown there, and probably Illyrian as well) with the Celtic, Germanic & Italic branches whilst Baltic & Slavic were placed with Indo-Iranian, Greek, Albanian, and Armenian (and Thracian)...
...Although bearing in mind the distribution of the first of those sets, maybe the similarities were because they simply retained some "early" features which the second set (originally occupying a more compact area closer to the family's geographical centre) had dropped?


The only theory I've heard about the Minoan language is that it was related to Etruscan, hence not Indo-European, but AFAIK we can't glean enough information from the Linear A corpus to say anything with certainty.
There's a theory, based on some similarities in place-name elements and some loanwords adopted by Greek, that both 'Minoan' and at least one pre-Greek language ('Pelasgian'?) spoken in mainland Greece were members of the Hittite/Anatolian branch of Indo-European.
 
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