The Course of Empire

TFSmith121

Banned
The Course of Empire are five thematically connected paintings by Thomas Cole, an American painter in the early Nineteenth Century seen as one of the founders of the Hudson River School of grand landscapes; it reflects a view of history that was very prevalent in his era (ref. Gibbon and Von Ranke) and offers what one could suggest is "alternate history" in an allegorical sense. As Cole wrote of his idea:
A series of pictures might be painted that should illustrate the History of a natural scene, as well as be an Epitome of Man—showing the natural changes of Landscape & those effected by man in his progress from Barbarism to Civilization, to Luxury, the Vicious state or state of destruction and to the state of Ruin & Desolation. ​
The philosophy of my subject is drawn from the history of the past, wherein we see how nations have risen from the Savage state to that of Power & Glory & then fallen & become extinct...​
The paintings (created as part of a single commission) include:


The Savage Age

The Pastoral Age

26924.jpg

Consumation

Destruction

Desolation


Cyclical history and the rise and fall of empires is a trope in its own right, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...

Having said that, I presume some people have seen this, but others have not, and may find it an interesting thought exercise to try and come up with an AH take to take advantage of the paintings. See below for all five:

http://www.explorethomascole.org/tour/items/69/series/

Best, and Happy New Year
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
The Course of Empire are five thematically connected paintings by Thomas Cole, an American painter in the early Nineteenth Century seen as one of the founders of the Hudson River School of grand landscapes; it reflects a view of history that was very prevalent in his era (ref. Gibbon and Von Ranke) and offers what one could suggest is "alternate history" in an allegorical sense. As Cole wrote of his idea:
A series of pictures might be painted that should illustrate the History of a natural scene, as well as be an Epitome of Man—showing the natural changes of Landscape & those effected by man in his progress from Barbarism to Civilization, to Luxury, the Vicious state or state of destruction and to the state of Ruin & Desolation. ​
The philosophy of my subject is drawn from the history of the past, wherein we see how nations have risen from the Savage state to that of Power & Glory & then fallen & become extinct...​
The paintings (created as part of a single commission) include:


The Savage Age

The Pastoral Age

26924.jpg

Consumation

Destruction

Desolation


Cyclical history and the rise and fall of empires is a trope in its own right, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you...

Having said that, I presume some people have seen this, but others have not, and may find it an interesting thought exercise to try and come up with an AH take to take advantage of the paintings. See below for all five:

http://www.explorethomascole.org/tour/items/69/series/

Best, and Happy New Year
Click to expand...

The fact that all empires in the course of human history have risen and fallen is not in itself proof of a cycle that repeats itself. As Niall Ferguson has shown, one peculiar similarity that afflicted a number of empires particularly before the start of their decline was when interest payments alone took up a significant chunk of government revenue. That argument may be seen as an economically deterministic one but its backed up by the historical evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_OAcxSjzyY#t=1622
 

TFSmith121

Banned
It may not be "proof" but it is certainly a trend that

It may not be "proof" but it is certainly a trend that it would be ill-advised to bet against!;)

The odds are long, so to speak...

It's really just an interesting example of artwork in the Nineteenth Century that illustrates a common understanding of history and society; Sic transit gloria mundi and Ozymandias are other examples.

Not everyone "at the top" (so to speak) in the Nineteenth Century expected it to last - there were plenty of people who should have known better, but deluded themselves; there were a fair number who understood the Rise and Fall cycle...

As far as Prof. Ferguson goes, consider the source.;)

Best,
 

Claudius

By the 300's AD, Roman coinage like the gold aureus was both debased with copper and bronze and so reduced in size as to become almost worthless. In some areas, like Britannia, counterfeit coinage was considered to be at least as valuable as real coins. If not a cause of the decline of Rome, certainly a good indicator of how impoverished the Empire had become.
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
It may not be "proof" but it is certainly a trend that it would be ill-advised to bet against!;)

The odds are long, so to speak...
Click to expand...

A trend caused by not learning from the mistakes of those who came before you. There's no cycle, just a lack of knowledge of the past.
TFSmith121 said:
It's really just an interesting example of artwork in the Nineteenth Century that illustrates a common understanding of history and society; Sic transit gloria mundi and Ozymandias are other examples.
Click to expand...

Agreed
TFSmith121 said:
Not everyone "at the top" (so to speak) in the Nineteenth Century expected it to last - there were plenty of people who should have known better, but deluded themselves; there were a fair number who understood the Rise and Fall cycle...
Click to expand...

Proves my first point
TFSmith121 said:
As far as Prof. Ferguson goes, consider the source.;)

Best,
Click to expand...

One of the greatest historians of our time. A contemporary Edward Gibbon.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
It doesn't have anything to do with Cole's work

Emperor Palpatine said:
How so?......
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It doesn't have anything to do with Cole's artistic work, but Feguson is not a serious historian, and has not been for some time. He found a much better paying gig as an alleged public intellectual (TM) for the Anglo-American conservaverse. There's a reason The History Boys was written, after all...

What’s the old line – “there are legions of talented young people ready to write what a few older and richer people will pay them to write”…

He has found a niche as a polemicist, undoubtedly. Like I said, I find him difficult to take seriously.

The point of historical inquiry is academic honesty and evidence-based scholarship, not polemics or apologia – that’s what they taught me in Historiography, at least.

Ferguson's spewing all over the map about the glories of imperialism ain't the above, by any stretch.

Best,
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
It doesn't have anything to do with Cole's artistic work, but Feguson is not a serious historian, and has not been for some time. He found a much better paying gig as an alleged public intellectual (TM) for the Anglo-American conservaverse. There's a reason The History Boys was written, after all...

What’s the old line – “there are legions of talented young people ready to write what a few older and richer people will pay them to write”…

He has found a niche as a polemicist, undoubtedly. Like I said, I find him difficult to take seriously.

The point of historical inquiry is academic honesty and evidence-based scholarship, not polemics or apologia – that’s what they taught me in Historiography, at least.

Ferguson's spewing all over the map about the glories of imperialism ain't the above, by any stretch.

Best,
Click to expand...

So who would you say are the great historians of our time? I'm not arguing with you I'm just looking for good reads.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Depends on the topic:

Emperor Palpatine said:
So who would you say are the great historians of our time? I'm not arguing with you I'm just looking for good reads.
Click to expand...

My own interests include Edmund S. Morgan and John Hope Franklin, among others, but they have both passed. Currently, for a general overview of American history, I'd reccommend Eric Foner to start.

Other topics - Western Civilization, or whatever it is Ferguson imagines is his specialty - is a whole different universe, obviously.

Best,
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Well, the last time he published anything in a professional

TyranicusMaximus said:
I notice that instead of attacking that premise, you just throw out a pointless personal attack.
Click to expand...


Well, the last time he published anything in a professional history journal (meaning something refereed by peers) was 2006; his last book of note (from the point of view of actually sifting sources and writing something recognized as worthwhile in the field was The World's Banker: The History of the House of Rothschild in 1998.

Since then, his work - undoubtedly well-rewarded - amounts to popular history written, opinion, and working as an advisor to various conservative candidates.

Whatever he is, he ain't a historian. Polemicist seems polite, actually.

Best,
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
Well, the last time he published anything in a professional history journal (meaning something refereed by peers) was 2006; his last book of note (from the point of view of actually sifting sources and writing something recognized as worthwhile in the field was The World's Banker: The History of the House of Rothschild in 1998.
Click to expand...

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Pity-War-Explaining-World/dp/0465057128

http://www.amazon.ca/Empire-Demise-British-Lessons-Global/dp/0465023290

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Britain-Made-Modern-World/dp/0141007540

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Ascent-Money-Financial-History/dp/0143116177


TFSmith121 said:
Since then, his work - undoubtedly well-rewarded - amounts to popular history written, opinion, and working as an advisor to various conservative candidates.
Click to expand...

I would hardly call his views on imperialism "popular". And how does being a political advisor make him any less of a historian?
TFSmith121 said:
Whatever he is, he ain't a historian. Polemicist seems polite, actually.

Best,
Click to expand...

Harvard would disagree with you.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
None of these are history, in any real sense;

Emperor Palpatine said:
http://www.amazon.ca/The-Pity-War-Explaining-World/dp/0465057128

http://www.amazon.ca/Empire-Demise-British-Lessons-Global/dp/0465023290

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Britain-Made-Modern-World/dp/0141007540

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Ascent-Money-Financial-History/dp/0143116177


I would hardly call his views on imperialism "popular". And how does being a political advisor make him any less of a historian?

Harvard would disagree with you.
Click to expand...

Basically, most of them amount to contrarianism for its own sake, and some are simply purely political, crafted to reinforce the views of a certain class of wealthy conservatives in the US and UK, and those who aspire to that point of view.

Harvard hires all sorts of people whose primary purpose is attracting donors; as someone much sharper than I once said, Harvard is an investment fund with a college attached.

Best,
 

Darth_Kiryan

This feels more like a painting review or a critique, so it makes me curious as to why this is in pre-1900 when it just seems to be an opinion piece?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, posting the Cole paintings was, I thought, a chance

Well, posting the Cole paintings was, I thought, a chance to consider what pre-1900 timeline they might be seen as illustrating, given the vaguely Classical look that Cole used in the five works - which are actually quite impressive viewed close up. They are housed in NY, but are in a traveling exhibition currently; well worth seeing, if you can...

The back and forth about Ferguson came up as drift, and was (semi) necroed by our Stars Wars fan yesterday...

Best,
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
Well, posting the Cole paintings was, I thought, a chance to consider what pre-1900 timeline they might be seen as illustrating, given the vaguely Classical look that Cole used in the five works - which are actually quite impressive viewed close up. They are housed in NY, but are in a traveling exhibition currently; well worth seeing, if you can...

The back and forth about Ferguson came up as drift, and was (semi) necroed by our Stars Wars fan yesterday...

Best,
Click to expand...

Whether you like him or not, the fact remains that Ferguson is one of the pre eminent historians of our time. He talks about big and important issues. My one issue with him is that for a historian he spends a ridiculous amount of time talking about the future. But then again, we study history so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Ferguson actually talked about the Cole paintings in the video I provided.
 

Emperor Palpatine

TFSmith121 said:
Basically, most of them amount to contrarianism for its own sake, and some are simply purely political, crafted to reinforce the views of a certain class of wealthy conservatives in the US and UK, and those who aspire to that point of view.



Best,
Click to expand...

Dr. Ferguson is a known conservative historian. My view is that he writes what he does as a means to provide his own conservative view of the past, not to further a greater conservative agenda.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
He is a pre-eminent something;

Emperor Palpatine said:
Whether you like him or not, the fact remains that Ferguson is one of the pre eminent historians of our time. He talks about big and important issues. My one issue with him is that for a historian he spends a ridiculous amount of time talking about the future. But then again, we study history so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Ferguson actually talked about the Cole paintings in the video I provided.
Click to expand...

He is a pre-eminent something; I'd not use the word "historian," however.;)

Sorry, I didn't make the connection between the video and the Cole paintings.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, the point of history as a social science is

Emperor Palpatine said:
Dr. Ferguson is a known conservative historian. My view is that he writes what he does as a means to provide his own conservative view of the past, not to further a greater conservative agenda.
Click to expand...

Well, the point of history as a social science is that one is supposed to go where the factual evidence takes one.

Not something Ferguson does anymore.

Best,
 
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