Italy: unified or devided

What do you prefer: Italy united or divided?

  • Italy Devided in 3 states (Northern Italy, Papal States and Two Scillies )

    Votes: 64 56.6%

  • Unified Italy

    Votes: 49 43.4%
  • Total voters
    113

aegis03florin

Hello guys,

I would like to ask you an opinion.

In my timeline An unlikely historical accident - The rise of a new nation,
I've included an aborted Italian unification but I'm not yet decided if I shall keep

  • Italy split in 3 : Northen Italy (including Lombardy - Veneto), Kingdom of Two Sicillies and Papal States (in Latium)
  • or shall let them unify under one single state.
What do you like to see?

Thanks:

1859_Italy_after_Congress_of_Rome.png
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
TBH I don't think they would call it the kingdom of Northern Italy - Napoleon simply called it Italy up there.

Interesting what effect it would have to see Two Sicilies to the East of Rome

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Yanez de Gomera

I don't see this asset as much stable. Unless circumstances are much changed the two sicilies are very unstable and northern Italy would probably profit from this and annex them sooner or later.
Also how could Piedmont get Tuscany, Parma and part of the papal states, and not at least Lombardy that in otl was their main goal in their wars against Austria?
Only way I can see this maybe working is an Italian Confederation, maybe with the Pope as President, like Gioberti proposed in OTL.
 

aegis03florin

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies!

In my timeline, I had Austrians beating hard the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont in the first stage of the war, before French arrival (who beet them back but with very high casualties). So, the pace permitted to the Austrians to keep Kingdom of Lombardy and to Sardinians to annex Tuscany, Parma and Luca, as well as Romagna, Marche and Umbria (who revolted against the Pope).

Also, the Two Sicillies were more or less forced by French and British to implement some reforms and to start to modernize.

I have plans to let Piedmont to occupy the Lombardy and Veneto regions in the future events but I have not yet decide if shall I keep 3 states or just one in Italy (today, a lot of Italians consider that the unification with the South was an error).

Thanks!
 

Yanez de Gomera

OK it is a plausible scenario, however I think that a State calling itself Italy would sooner or later (eg at the first moment of weakness of France) conquer Rome.
If you butterfly Garibaldi away and have the British keep supporting the south it may actually survive. I think the best possibility for keeping the three states partition is a sort of confederal agreement. Otherwise northern Italy, being much stronger will end conquering the other states.
 

Halagaz

Hmm...voted for the second option, but my answer would be "keep it divided into 3 states, then unify it much later"
 

Halagaz

Yanez de Gomera said:
I too think this would be the best outcome
Click to expand...

Well, from what I read, the Bourbon rule in Two Sicilies was a massive trainwreck, so I don't know if keeping them around longer would really be a good thing for Italy. But I also think it would be the most interesting of the realistic options.
 

aegis03florin

Halagaz said:
Well, from what I read, the Bourbon rule in Two Sicilies was a massive trainwreck, so I don't know if keeping them around longer would really be a good thing for Italy. But I also think it would be the most interesting of the realistic options.
Click to expand...

Hi!

Yes, the Burbons will be kept on the throne as I founded unlikely for the great powers to replace them with another dynasty or a republic (God Forbid it!):cool:

The Two Sicilies will not be in position of defending themselves against the North. For now, it relies on Brtitish, French and Austrian help.
 

Richter von Manthofen

IF Austria is so sucessful that it can keep Lombardo Venetia it will do its utmort to prevent the rest of Italy to merge into one state - especially NOT northern Italy where so many Habsburgs ruled minor States. So from an Austria POV even 3 states are not enough.
 

aegis03florin

Richter von Manthofen said:
IF Austria is so sucessful that it can keep Lombardo Venetia it will do its utmort to prevent the rest of Italy to merge into one state - especially NOT northern Italy where so many Habsburgs ruled minor States. So from an Austria POV even 3 states are not enough.
Click to expand...

Hi!

Yes, from Austria POV, even 3 states are not enough.
In my Timeline, Austria had lost the war as badly as OTL but gained more at the negotiated table as the Sardinians were mopped badly and the French lost the faith due to the very high casualties and were most inclined to made compromises.
As the British show the intention to arbitrate, Napoleon III do not agree to let the British stolen the peace and proposed this agreement. Victor Emanuel accepted the deal as he had no more army, no more money and no more international support to achieve his goals.
Both Sardinia and Austria know that it's just a break between rematch.
ITTL, Garibaldi was numbered on the side of war casualties so not "Spedizione dei Mille" and the Bourbons was kept on the throne. The British and the French involved themselves to keep this state alive... one way or another...
Also, the Pope Pius IX died and a new pope was elected (Leo XIII - for commodity I kept the same winner as the Archbishop of Perugia was well placed).

So, I'm wondering now what should I do next with Italy... :rolleyes:
 

fishingfred

Hey
I am currently planing out a Vienna Congress TL and have reached the 1860's. While the situation in my TL comes about rather differently (Murat Naples) by said point in time Austria has "drawed"/ lost two wars against France/Savoy/Murat (in different constellations). Thus funnily enough my Italy map looks almost exactly like yours (2 Italian Powers [North/South], Austria holding LV and Papal States reduced to Lazio).
With my limited understanding of the Italian unification I have identified Rome as the crucial keystone that will unite the two powers. As opposed to lets say Austria and Prussia where no single city had that kind of influence on german nationalism (Yes, Frankfurt worked for the 48' revolution, but it wouldn't work for two sovereign great powers fusing together).
So currently I am analysing butterflies to look for the next big conflict in which both Austria (obviously) and France(never underestimate French catholics in the 19th century) will be distracted and the Italians get an opportunity to take Rome.
Not wanting to spoil my TL (if I ever post it:rolleyes:) my Austria gets different territories out of the Vienna congress (italian provinces are almost OTL) thus changing their perception of nationalism and regional devolution. So no big italian revolts in Austria. And a small touch of "we are the superior Italians" mentality in Venetians and Lombardians, how much of that is Metternich propaganda I leave to the reader.

Now I dont know how strong and stable both of your Italian states are and what the internal situation in the great powers looks like but that are just my two cents.
 
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lukedalton

fishingfred said:
Hey
I am currently planing out a Vienna Congress TL and have reached the 1860's. While the situation in my TL comes about rather differently (Murat Naples) by said point in time Austria has "drawed"/ lost two wars against France/Savoy/Murat (in different constellations). Thus funnily enough my Italy map looks almost exactly like yours (2 Italian Powers [North/South], Austria holding LV and Papal States reduced to Lazio).
With my limited understanding of the Italian unification I have identified Rome as the crucial keystone that will unite the two powers. As opposed to lets say Austria and Prussia where no single city had that kind of influence on german nationalism (Yes, Frankfurt worked for the 48' revolution, but it wouldn't work for two sovereign great powers fusing together).
So currently I am analysing butterflies to look for the next big conflict in which both Austria (obviously) and France(never underestimate French catholics in the 19th century) will be distracted and the Italians get an opportunity to take Rome.
Not wanting to spoil my TL (if I ever post it:rolleyes:) my Austria gets different territories out of the Vienna congress (italian provinces are almost OTL) thus changing their perception of nationalism and regional devolution. So no big italian revolts in Austria. And a small touch of "we are the superior Italians" mentality in Venetians and Lombardians, how much of that is Metternich propaganda I leave to the reader.

Now I dont know how strong and stable both of your Italian states are and what the internal situation in the great powers looks like but that are just my two cents.
Click to expand...

Without the intransigence of Pio IX an agreement between the parts is much more probable.

Regarding your TL, sorry even if there will be the 'superior italian' mentality (and this will succeed only if you get Goebbles on the austrian side), this doesn't mean that Lomabardy-Venetia will want stay in the A-H empire, probably the contrary; and for create an internal situation where there will no a big italian revolt due to the leaderships having different idea...let's say i found it very difficult, because this will mean a very radical change of mind probably at brain transplant level.
 
Zorqal

Zorqal

I like the idea of a divided Italy, but I think it only needs two; Italy up north and Two Sicilies/Naples/Sicily down south. But yeah, seeing as Italy is historically only the north anyway, I think it should only go by that, unless Two Sicilies is going to be called South Italy, which doesn't make sense.
 

fishingfred

lukedalton said:
Without the intransigence of Pio IX an agreement between the parts is much more probable.

Regarding your TL, sorry even if there will be the 'superior italian' mentality (and this will succeed only if you get Goebbles on the austrian side), this doesn't mean that Lomabardy-Venetia will want stay in the A-H empire, probably the contrary;
Click to expand...

The "superior italian" stuff is of course over the top. It isn't really that big of a point in the TL (If you wanna exchange thoughts on that PM me). I just wanted to point out in this thread that you can have a Italian state with LV in Austria if the Austrian Empire is strong and devolved enough. The bigger point is really that after a unification of south and north (without LV) ATL Italy will suffer similar problems to OTL thus leading to LV beeing the economically most stable part of the italian peninsular.

and for create an internal situation where there will no a big italian revolt due to the leaderships having different idea...let's say i found it very difficult, because this will mean a very radical change of mind probably at brain transplant level.
Click to expand...
Not really that difficult, again not wanting to spoil my timeline too badly, but one dead Emperor and Austria forced to work with a young, mentaly deficient Emperor will change the political landscape in Vienna forever.
 

jb3

I admit I'm biased. My grandfather came from Sicily and he never regarded himself as "Italian" (and he hated Garabaldi and his men with a passion). Probably a minority position but there it is.

I'm up for seeing Italian unification in ways other than a) Mazzini/Garabaldi and Co. and b) House of Savoy. But there are a lot of differences between Northern and Southern Italy, cultural, linguistic, historical then they can remain separate with only the ultra-Nationalists crowing.
 

lukedalton

The "superior italian" stuff is of course over the top. It isn't really that big of a point in the TL (If you wanna exchange thoughts on that PM me). I just wanted to point out in this thread that you can have a Italian state with LV in Austria if the Austrian Empire is strong and devolved enough. The bigger point is really that after a unification of south and north (without LV) ATL Italy will suffer similar problems to OTL thus leading to LV beeing the economically most stable part of the italian peninsular.
Click to expand...

LV was already the most economically stable part of the italian penisula...and devolving the A-H Empire is not a simple thing due to myriad of components, i don't say is not possible with the right Pod, just that's easy like actual peace on the middle-east

Not counting that if House Murat is in charge of the South, it will surely being in a better state than OTL as the Bourboun littery destroyed the Kingdom and frankly if Austria lost two wars it's not only down on prestige but LV will be one if not the principal objective of any war against Austria.
Austria can keep Veneto and Mantua with the quadrilatero...but the rest of Lombardy will gone.
 

fishingfred

lukedalton said:
LV was already the most economically stable part of the italian penisula...and devolving the A-H Empire is not a simple thing due to myriad of components, i don't say is not possible with the right Pod, just that's easy like actual peace on the middle-east

Not counting that if House Murat is in charge of the South, it will surely being in a better state than OTL as the Bourboun littery destroyed the Kingdom and frankly if Austria lost two wars it's not only down on prestige but LV will be one if not the principal objective of any war against Austria.
Austria can keep Veneto and Mantua with the quadrilatero...but the rest of Lombardy will gone.
Click to expand...

Now we are disscussing my (planned) TL not the OP's TL. Since I value your input and if you are interested I will write you a PM containing my italian "plotpoints" for the 19th Century.

For the sake of this disscussion lets just say. Austria "won" those two "wars" but didn't have the political will (As well as the political will of her allies) to go into Italy and reeinstate some Dukes in Italy that fled as soon as the war / revolution broke out.
Linking that back to the OP's TL if Austria is in a position of strength and able to hold onto LV (which is in someway devolved). An Italian unification without LV and a possible economic fallout can make Austria look even more appealing (+ of course the effect that [strong] Austria doesn't want to let go).

Also wasn't the hinterlands of Venice and Friaul pretty poor? Maybe my economic research is bad.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Three states - or even two - sort of automatically

Three states - or even two - sort of automatically opens the door to continual French and Austrian involvement, doesn't it?

Vacumns have a way of being filled.

Best,
 
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