Henry IV has son with Joan of Navarre

What if Henry IV of England had a surviving son with Infanta Joan of Navarre?
What title would he get?
How would his line impact/butterfly the Wars of the Roses?

EDIT: wrong forum. Waiting to be moved...

The Professor said:

What if Henry IV of England had a surviving son with Infanta Joan of Navarre?
What title would he get?
How would his line impact/butterfly the Wars of the Roses?

EDIT: wrong forum. Waiting to be moved...

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I don't see how this impacts Sea Lion or Richard Nixon. Get out of our forum!

The Professor said:

What if Henry IV of England had a surviving son with Infanta Joan of Navarre?
What title would he get?
How would his line impact/butterfly the Wars of the Roses?

EDIT: wrong forum. Waiting to be moved...

Click to expand...

Ok so I will call the son of Henry IV and Joan of Navarre, Prince Charles (after her father), he would have to be born between 1403 and 1413, lets say 1408.

So Prince Charles, would be given the titled, Charles of Lancaster, 1st Duke of York. He is five, when his father dies and his oldest half brother, Henry V takes the in 1413.

At the age of 16, he would be married off, most likely to just an English noblewoman, such as Elizabeth le Despenser or Cecily Neville.

His line will also affect France, as his blood line would be in line to the throne of the duchy of Brittany, meaning any male, alive in 1488, would come before OTL Anne, Duchess of Brittany.

In 1422, Charles would be able to help as Regent of England, while Henry VI is underage.

The War of the Roses, IOTL does not begin until 1455, when TTL Charles is 47, so if the war happens he will be able to support his nephew, Henry VI and would try and marry his daughter to him, so that the throne stays in the hands of loyal and trustworthy people.

Jonathan said:

Ok so I will call the son of Henry IV and Joan of Navarre, Prince Charles (after her father), he would have to be born between 1403 and 1413, lets say 1408.

So Prince Charles, would be given the titled, Charles of Lancaster, 1st Duke of York. He is five, when his father dies and his oldest half brother, Henry V takes the in 1413.

At the age of 16, he would be married off, most likely to just an English noblewoman, such as Elizabeth le Despenser or Cecily Neville.

His line will also affect France, as his blood line would be in line to the throne of the duchy of Brittany, meaning any male, alive in 1488, would come before OTL Anne, Duchess of Brittany.

In 1422, Charles would be able to help as Regent of England, while Henry VI is underage.

The War of the Roses, IOTL does not begin until 1455, when TTL Charles is 47, so if the war happens he will be able to support his nephew, Henry VI and would try and marry his daughter to him, so that the throne stays in the hands of loyal and trustworthy people.

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He does not have a claim to Brittany but he has a claim to Navarre.

Perhaps, Joan of Navarre would try to marry her son to the heiress of Navarre which would be his first cousin, I think Joan or Blanche of Navarre both come into mind, butterflying the Aragonese acquisition of Navarre.

Jonathan said:

Ok so I will call the son of Henry IV and Joan of Navarre, Prince Charles (after her father), he would have to be born between 1403 and 1413, lets say 1408.

So Prince Charles, would be given the titled, Charles of Lancaster, 1st Duke of York. He is five, when his father dies and his oldest half brother, Henry V takes the in 1413.

At the age of 16, he would be married off, most likely to just an English noblewoman, such as Elizabeth le Despenser or Cecily Neville.

His line will also affect France, as his blood line would be in line to the throne of the duchy of Brittany, meaning any male, alive in 1488, would come before OTL Anne, Duchess of Brittany.

In 1422, Charles would be able to help as Regent of England, while Henry VI is underage.

The War of the Roses, IOTL does not begin until 1455, when TTL Charles is 47, so if the war happens he will be able to support his nephew, Henry VI and would try and marry his daughter to him, so that the throne stays in the hands of loyal and trustworthy people.

Click to expand...

He wouldn't be Duke of York - that's still with Edward of Norwich.
And as Kusimgenx says his claim to Brittany would be behind that of Joan's brother Henry the later King.
Likewise Lancaster would go to one of his older brothers as OTL.

EDIT: actually behind that of Joan's sons with John of Brittany! Not sure where the whole Henry thing came from!

The Professor said:

He wouldn't be Duke of York - that's still with Edward of Norwich.
And as Kusimgenx says his claim to Brittany would be behind that of Joan's brother Henry the later King.
Likewise Lancaster would go to one of his older brothers as OTL.

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The brother of Joan of Navarrre is Charles III of Navarre, who is the ancestor of Henri IV of France.

kasumigenx said:

The brother of Joan of Navarrre is Charles III of Navarre, who is the ancestor of Henri IV of France.

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Yeah, not sure why I said Henry .
And Joan is younger than Charles and is 6th of 7 children

kasumigenx said:

He does not have a claim to Brittany but he has a claim to Navarre.

Perhaps, Joan of Navarre would try to marry her son to the heiress of Navarre which would be his first cousin, I think Joan or Blanche of Navarre both come into mind, butterflying the Aragonese acquisition of Navarre.

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Joan of Navarre was the Duchess consort of Brittany through marriage with John V of Brittany, and mother of John VI, Duke of Brittany and Arthur III, Duke of Brittany.
She is also grandmother to Francis II, Duke of Brittany, who in 1488, died without a male heir, leading to his daugher Anne taking the throne. So through half blood, he would be related to this family and if he marries into the family again would lead to him having a claim to Brittany.

But the King Charles of Navarre sounds good

The Professor said:

He wouldn't be Duke of York - that's still with Edward of Norwich.
Likewise Lancaster would go to one of his older brothers as OTL.

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Royal titles always alludes me lol. Instad of York what about Duke of Kent?
Edmund Holland, 4th Earl of Kent, died in 1408, without issue, so we could see the title revived for the young prince?

*Charles may be close in age to Richard, Duke of York. If he survives, there may be some interesting implications if he ends up competent. By the time Bedford passes away, Charles might be able to step into a similar supporting role for Henry VI.

He might be an uncontroversial choice to assume a Regency if Henry VI becomes incapacitated. Henry VI may rely on favourites like Suffolk and Edmund Beaufort less if he has an uncle to do the work.

And if he has heirs of his own, Richard, Duke of York might be much farther in line to the throne.

Combine this with Jacqueline of Hainault having children with Humphrey we will have a Plantagenet state in the Netherlands.

Jonathan said:

Royal titles always alludes me lol. Instad of York what about Duke of Kent?
Edmund Holland, 4th Earl of Kent, died in 1408, without issue, so we could see the title revived for the young prince?

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Kent or Surrey (the variation used by Edmund's predecessor) seems reasonable.

Ladymadchan said:

*Charles may be close in age to Richard, Duke of York. If he survives, there may be some interesting implications if he ends up competent. By the time Bedford passes away, Charles might be able to step into a similar supporting role for Henry VI.

He might be an uncontroversial choice to assume a Regency if Henry VI becomes incapacitated. Henry VI may rely on favourites like Suffolk and Edmund Beaufort less if he has an uncle to do the work.

And if he has heirs of his own, Richard, Duke of York might be much farther in line to the throne.

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Charles will likely be involved in the Regency and if on good terms with the Yorks it may butterfly the rise of the Beauforts entirely.
A lot will depend on his marriage and succession.
Who's available for him?

If Joan of Navarre gives birth to Henry IV's son, she will likely avoid charges of witchcraft, confiscation of her dower lands, and house arrest.

As for Charles* potential wives there are a couple of interesting choices.

Charles* could end up the brother-in-law to the Duke of York. York's only sister Isabella was born in 1409 so she's a good age for him, and her brother's estate can support a fat dowry. After York's uncles' and father's treachery the Lancastrians might want the match between the Isabella and Charles* to bring her brother Richard into the fold. Dynastically speaking the children from this union won't be the senior heirs of York or Lancaster, but will have blood from both sides.

Charles* might butterfly Richard Neville from becoming the earl of Warwick by marrying Richard de Beauchamp's eldest daughter Margaret (born in 1404). Richard de Beauchamp was one of England's better generals in the Hundred Year's War and was later responsible for the education of Henry VI. By his first marriage he had three daughters, and a son (born 20 years after the first daughter) and another daughter (the mother of Anne Neville). In the OTL Richard Neville was married to the youngest daughter and went to court and won the estate even though his wife was the youngest. If the oldest sister is married to the King's uncle, the outcome of that case might be very different. So how does Charles, Duke of Warwick sound?

Anne Stafford, the sister of Humphrey Stafford, future Duke of Buckingham is also an option. She's not an heiress, but she only has only one brother, who is an heir to a vast estate. She also has royal blood as a descendent of Thomas of Woodstock, 1st Duke of Gloucester. Her brother was also Joan of Navarre's ward.

International:
One of the younger sister Anne or Agnes) of Philip, Duke of Burgundy. Anne married Bedford in the OTL, but Charles* is closer to her in age so that marriage might be a better option and would leave Bedford to marry elsewhere.

One of the daughters of Henry III of Castille and Catherine of Lancaster (daughter of John of Gaunt). Maria was born in 1401 and Catherine was born in 1403 or 1406.

Hmmm, a local marriage therefore seems likely.
Much as I'd like the idea of Charles being a better Duke of Warwick I feel the marriage to Isabelle more politically likely. Unless of course something happens to Stafford

BTW what were Joan's dower lands?

Charles could be made the Duke of Gascony, I think there is a possibility for him to marry Catherine of Valois instead, if Isabella of Valois marries Henry V.

The Professor said:

Hmmm, a local marriage therefore seems likely.
Much as I'd like the idea of Charles being a better Duke of Warwick I feel the marriage to Isabelle more politically likely. Unless of course something happens to Stafford

BTW what were Joan's dower lands?

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I don't know which lands were held by Joan. She got along well with her husband Henry IV, and her step sons. But when Henry V took the throne he accused Joan of witchcraft in a cash grab and withheld Joan's dowry lands and avoided paying for a Dowager Queen. If she has a son with Henry IV, she avoids this IMO.

My guess is that the young Duke of York would be made Joan's ward and raised alongside her son with the understanding that Isabelle marries Charles*.

kasumigenx said:

Charles could be made the Duke of Gascony, I think there is a possibility for him to marry Catherine of Valois instead, if Isabella of Valois marries Henry V.

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Perhaps better suited for any sons if his line ends up King.

Ladymadchan said:

I don't know which lands were held by Joan. She got along well with her husband Henry IV, and her step sons. But when Henry V took the throne he accused Joan of witchcraft in a cash grab and withheld Joan's dowry lands and avoided paying for a Dowager Queen. If she has a son with Henry IV, she avoids this IMO.

My guess is that the young Duke of York would be made Joan's ward and raised alongside her son with the understanding that Isabelle marries Charles*.

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Sounds reasonable.

So what can we expect re France, do troubles still erupt roughly as OTL?

Bumping for further speculation