What if Aachen became Dutch

pompejus

As you might know (and if you don't check a map), the city of Aachen lies very closely to the Netherlands. Besides that Aachen had been an important city in German history. Recently I was wondering how important Aachen was for German nationalists. So what if Aachen had become Dutch? And I don't mean in the 20th century after the first or second world war, but earlier late 18th or early 19th century.

If you look at this map, the coloured parts were part of the duchy of Limburg or the "landen van Overmaas", which were divided by the Dutch republic and the southern Netherlands.


In this map you can see which was Dutch and which belonged to the southern Netherlands.
http://www.hoeckmann.de/imagesdeutsch/limburg.gif
limburg.gif


In both you see how Aachen is almost surrounded by "Dutch" territory.

So lets assume (for example) that the Netherlands does slightly better during the negotiations of a peace treaty (like the treaty of Utrecht) and manages to gain Ubach-Palenberg, Herzogenrath, Kerkrade and Alsdorf. rnech revolution and Napoleon happens and the Netherlands regains these areas after the wars and gains Eupen and Walhorn (part of Limburg) and to create a reasonable border also gains Aachen.

Or maybe the Dutch simply gain Aachen after the Napoleonic wars in Vienna (It was included in the claims Willem I made, but never got), because the borders around Limburg were drawn slightly differently. Prussia got compensated somewhere else, assuming it is even necessary.

Anyway the Netherlands got Aachen and it remains Dutch after the Belgian revolution (assuming it isn't butterflied away).

So the German nationalism happens. How would they react to Aachen being Dutch? Simply leave the Netherlands alone, like they did OTL and ignore it (and not even care about it). Would they actualy attack the Netherlands to gain it? Or would they stil claim it, but leave it as it is, as the relationship with the Netherlands is more important than 1 small city.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

It might well depend on whether Aachen views itself/is viewed as German or Dutch. Its not like the low German dialects in the area were terribly far from the Dutch dialects just across the border. Theyre closer to each other than either is to Hochdeutsch.

If people in Aachen stop struggling with Luther's bible, and start using a dutch on, Dutch could catch on fast.

Edit: Dutch is a lower Franconian dialect, and Aachen was the Frankish capital, so clearly Aachen should be in the Netherlands! ;)
 
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pompejus

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
It might well depend on whether Aachen views itself/is viewed as German or Dutch. Its not like the low German dialects in the area were terribly far from the Dutch dialects just across the border. Theyre closer to each other than either is to Hochdeutsch.

If people in Aachen stop struggling with Luther's bible, and start using a dutch on, Dutch could catch on fast.

Edit: Dutch is a lower Franconian dialect, and Aachen was the Frankish capital, so clearly Aachen should be in the Netherlands! ;)
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Looking at the other areas in the neighbourhood (which sometimes never were Dutch), I think the people of Aachen could relatively easily adapt to being Dutch and the Dutch language.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

I'm not quite sure the HRE, or actuall Hapbsbourgs would have really accepted this, without a severe defeat. Aachen was one of the symbol of imperial authority and wouldn't have been gaven up easily, such as Italy wouldn't renounce to Rome without a really good reason.

So, one of the requirement would be probably the disbandement of HRE to begin with. And would Austria (or Prussia for the instance) would accept a town symbolizing the Reich and Germant would go outside the Confederacy? Again not that sure.

*Maybe*, if Napoleon is more sensible to Netherlands supports and try to compense loss of some territories in the Rhine west bank by giving them Aachen and Frisia instead of diploannexing them, you could see Netherlands pulling a Bavaria, and keeping for itself some of the annexations made during Napoleonic Era?
 

Gurroruo

LSCatilina said:
I'm not quite sure the HRE, or actuall Hapbsbourgs would have really accepted this, without a severe defeat. Aachen was one of the symbol of imperial authority and wouldn't have been gaven up easily, such as Italy wouldn't renounce to Rome without a really good reason.

So, one of the requirement would be probably the disbandement of HRE to begin with. And would Austria (or Prussia for the instance) would accept a town symbolizing the Reich and Germant would go outside the Confederacy? Again not that sure.

*Maybe*, if Napoleon is more sensible to Netherlands supports and try to compense loss of some territories in the Rhine west bank by giving them Aachen and Frisia instead of diploannexing them, you could see Netherlands pulling a Bavaria, and keeping for itself some of the annexations made during Napoleonic Era?
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Yeah what LSC

Or you could lower the importance of Aachen to Germany or even better have it be incorporated in the Medieval Age
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

Gurroruo said:
Or you could lower the importance of Aachen to Germany or even better have it be incorporated in the Medieval Age
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Thing is, its symbolical important was even more important during Middle Ages. It was one of the most used symbols of imperium after all.
Maybe no HRE could do it, but it would have probably unfortunate consequences about the creation of Netherlands as a country :)
 

Gurroruo

LSCatilina said:
Thing is, its symbolical important was even more important during Middle Ages. It was one of the most used symbols of imperium after all.
Maybe no HRE could do it, but it would have probably unfortunate consequences about the creation of Netherlands as a country :)
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Yeah the POD would have to be early, it became very important after Charlemagne held it as a capital.
 

pompejus

LSCatilina said:
I'm not quite sure the HRE, or actuall Hapbsbourgs would have really accepted this, without a severe defeat. Aachen was one of the symbol of imperial authority and wouldn't have been gaven up easily, such as Italy wouldn't renounce to Rome without a really good reason.

So, one of the requirement would be probably the disbandement of HRE to begin with. And would Austria (or Prussia for the instance) would accept a town symbolizing the Reich and Germant would go outside the Confederacy? Again not that sure.
Click to expand...

My idea was that the Netherlands got Aachen after the Napoleonic wars, when the HRE was disbanded and Austria lost all territories near the Netherlands.

My idea was that the Dutch Republic got parts of Limburg and Overmaas (see maps), so that Aachen was almost completely surrounded by Dutch territory. After the Napoleonic wars the Netherlands got all the European territory of the Dutch Republic OTL, so I think it is reasonable to assume they would get it ATL. So Aachen is effectively surrounded by Dutch land.

To create a better border, Aachen ends up being Dutch during the Vienna congress. The HRE doesn'exist anymore. The Habsburgs weren't German nationalists (there were too many non Germans in Austria) and did not have any land in the area and personaly I don't think the Prussians would care that much. Nationalism was not a major factor during the Vienna Congress.
 

TheseusDeuteros

I think Aachen would stay Dutch if it becomes Dutch territory in the eighteenth (maybe early nineteenth) century, provided that it 'Dutchifies' to a reasonable extent and that it does not, for some reason, become very important, geopolitically speaking. Thing is, indeed, one city isn't important enough for the Germans to start a conflict with an entire country (Germany never attacked Switzerland or Liechtenstein, after all - and yes, I'm aware of the fact that the situation in those two countries was, and is, very different, but still). As mentioned before, the local dialects aren't very different across the border. As of today, Kerkrade is Dutch and Herzogenrath is German, whilst in fact, both cities used to be one city and people from both sides of the city can communicate without any language-related problem.

Moreover, I think there's an important consequence for the Netherlands if Aachen remains Dutch: Limburg will be more prosperous and the south of the province will have another significant city, besides Maastricht (and maybe other cities if Belgian Limburg is annexed).
 

Parma

Why not the whole Duchy of Limburg after a favorable peace treaty in the 18th century?
And I do think Spanish Gelre also.
I do not see what implications it will have later during the 19th century if it become part together with the city Aachen of a Kingdom of the Netherlands. Limburg was not sensitive of German Nationalism during the 19th century either. Domestic it will have some effect since it increase the Catholic portion of the Netherlands.
 

pompejus

Parma said:
Why not the whole Duchy of Limburg after a favorable peace treaty in the 18th century?
And I do think Spanish Gelre also.
Click to expand...
All of Limburg would work encircling Aachen even more, but the Netherlands getting Limburg, especialy all of Limburg isn't likely. The Netherlands already got parts of Overmaas, but no part of Limburg proper. Spanish Gelre is possible, but hard. Also it isn't particularly relevant for this threat.

Parma said:
I do not see what implications it will have later during the 19th century if it become part together with the city Aachen of a Kingdom of the Netherlands. Limburg was not sensitive of German Nationalism during the 19th century either. Domestic it will have some effect since it increase the Catholic portion of the Netherlands.
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So it looks like the general opinion is that even though Aachen is an historically important part of German history, it is not a good enough reason for Germany to antagonise the Netherlands, but getting a Dutch Aachen is pretty hard.
 

Carl Schwamberger

I'm wondering, if this larger Netherlands would be more stable and the French speaking portions not break away in the 1830s? Or, the Francophones be more likely to separate?

Whatever the case this greater Holland changes the dynamics of the start of the Great War, and round II.
 

Tyr

Id imagine such a situation would lead to the Netherlands being regarded far more as a special part of ethnic Germany rather than the totally different entity we see it as today. The nazi view as the mainstream.
Could lead more German nationalists to seek to incorporate the whole country rather than just Aachen.
 

pompejus

Carl Schwamberger said:
I'm wondering, if this larger Netherlands would be more stable and the French speaking portions not break away in the 1830s? Or, the Francophones be more likely to separate?

Whatever the case this greater Holland changes the dynamics of the start of the Great War, and round II.
Click to expand...

Aachen was/is only a minor city bordering the Netherlands. Adding it and some neighbouring towns, like Herzogenrath or Eupen, to the Netherlands will not shift the balance of power significantly. Simply put, it was not important enough.


Tyr said:
Id imagine such a situation would lead to the Netherlands being regarded far more as a special part of ethnic Germany rather than the totally different entity we see it as today. The nazi view as the mainstream.
Could lead more German nationalists to seek to incorporate the whole country rather than just Aachen.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that. The Dutch distanced themselve from the Germans quite a lot during the 19th and 20th (and 21st) centuries. Almost noone in the Netherlands considered themselves German. I doubt Aachen would change that, or the perception of the German nationalists.

Something that could happen (which is part of the reason for the question) is the folowing: First lets assume that the Belgian Revolt still happens and happens roughly like OTL (with just the difference of Aachen and neighbouring towns becoming Dutch this is likely), this leads to the split of the provinces of Limburg and Luxemburg. Since Luxemburg loses half of its territory to Belgium, Dutch Limburg becomes part of the German confederation as compensation, just like OTL, although it includes Aachen now. During the wars that lead to the unification of Germany, Germany (or Prussia or whoever) declares war on the Netherlands, wins it (obviously, the Netherlands is far weaker than Germany) and the Netherlands loses Limburg and Luxemburg in the peace treaty.

The question is, how likely is such a situation. Would the German nationalists care enough about Aachen to antagonise the Netherlands (probably pushing them into the French sphere of influence) to declare war on the netherlands.
 

Tyr

I was thinking much earlier than nationalist times, more around the formation f the Netherlands.
And more the Germans considering the Dutch German than the Dutch themselves doing so
 
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