Russian colonialization of the West Coast?

IOTL, Russia had Fort Ross in central California in the beginning of the 19th century. Is there any way to get the Ruskies to California earlier than OTL and farther down south? I know they were only interested in furs, which is a problem.
 
IOTL, Russia had Fort Ross in central California in the beginning of the 19th century. Is there any way to get the Ruskies to California earlier than OTL and farther down south? I know they were only interested in furs, which is a problem.

If they had Hawaii maybe but otherwise I can't think of something
 
There's Semyon Dezhnev's exploration that mapped out Siberia and parts of North America. If that discovery was presented to Moscow, then the Tsar could fund the territorial exploration of Alaska. It also helps to develop Arctic sailing techniques too.
 
IOTL, Russia had Fort Ross in central California in the beginning of the 19th century. Is there any way to get the Ruskies to California earlier than OTL and farther down south? I know they were only interested in furs, which is a problem.

Well, it would be interesting if some Native American tribes make contact with Orthodox missionaries on a larger scale . Until today there are some Orthodox Aleutians in OTL Alaska. Might we even see cossack settlements in North America in a large scale Russian West Coast colonisation ?
 
What if they get there before America was interested, or even before America was a nation? Though, granted, the Spanish or Mexicans (depending on POD) are bound to be an issue

7 Years War French victory. The Russians don't withdraw and destroy Prussia and Hanover leading to a different peace treaty. France still loses a lot of their empire, maybe they give Canada up keep India, and give Louisianna to Spain. Then the Russians get Central and northern Calfiornia from Spain as a reward. I don't know I just spitballing
 
7 Years War French victory. The Russians don't withdraw and destroy Prussia and Hanover leading to a different peace treaty. France still loses a lot of their empire, maybe they give Canada up keep India, and give Louisianna to Spain. Then the Russians get Central and northern Calfiornia from Spain as a reward. I don't know I just spitballing

Don't worry, I was just tossing stuff out too, and that does sound like a pretty good idea to me
 

iddt3

Donor
The Problem with settling Russian California is that to get there you have to go through Russian Siberia, and unlike the Great Plains, a lot of it is fairly decent land to settle. Then you have to build an Ocean going boat from scratch. Then you have to cross a rather large Ocean, settle in a completely different biome than you're used to, and defend it against powers which have a far easier time than you do projecting force there. Any goods you generate must likewise be shipped all the way back on that insanely long trail through Siberia overland or via sea to the other side of the planet through often icebound seas.

Russian america worked decently well for sending a few trappers down to gather moderately high value furs, something Russia already had experience in selling on the world marker, but which weren't valuable enough to be worth taking away. The second anything really valuable (like say, gold) is found, settlers are going to come in from all over the place, and due to location, and who controls the seas, most of those are going to be Anglos of some sort.

Conversely, without anything of great value, there is little incentive to settle it as it's pretty much on the other side of the world from Russia's population centers, and any adventures serfs who want land can find decent stuff much closer (in the Ukraine, or later, Siberia) that's also better suited for their crop package.

Russia was in a very good position to explore the Pacific before many other powers, but that did not translate to being in a good position to *settle* in the Pacific before other powers got there. If you read up on the early Russian explorers you'll see why; Most of them were insane badasses of some sort or another, and whatever they didn't haul from European Russia they needed to make on the spot. That's fine if you're a polymath explorer, survivalist sea-and-land-going-don't-give-a-fuck can do super man, but for Ivan Serf, whose carting his family and everything he owns across poorly settled region, via "roads" that are mud half the year, across over 5,000 miles (twice the distance from DC to LA), and now need to build a ship yourself to travel another few thousand miles, the journey might be a wee bit daunting.
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Distances are brutal, and the Russians were pretty thin

Distances are brutal, and the Russians were pretty thin in the Pacific (Asian) provinces, much less Alaska...Petropavlovsk had a few thousand people, and Russian sovereignty over the mainland provinces west of Kamchatka was still pretty nominal.

The time and distance equations are pretty close to impossible for any "settler" nation to overcome in the Eighteenth Century, and even in the Nineteenth, the US was the only really likely expansionist power - Americans had been marrying into the Californio elite since the first part of the century, and California's one real export at this point had a ready-made market in New England. Likewise, the fur trade was enough to keep the US, British, and Russians in the game of trading with the locals in the PNW, but not enough to really justify trying to create a settler colony by sea - and the Oregon and other transcontinental trails gave the US the advantage in "filling" the West Coast, even before the Gold Rush.

I'm not sure Russia ever suffered from a lack of raw material for leather goods, of course.

And - even with the Comanche - it was possible to get from the US to California during the winter overland (not recommended, but possible).

Getting from anywhere with a significant surplus of Russian population to the Russian Far East in winter was difficult enough; getting across the North Pacific was just that much farther to go, and for even less of an economic reward than the fur trade.

Best,
 
How large part of West Coast should be colonized by Russia?

While taking all the West Coast including California without major POD earlier than first half of XVIII century that either totally reshapes the history of Russia or butterflies off USA(and any other developed and aggressive Northern American state) is highly implausible because a) USA needs a foothold on Pacific b) California is too rich both with fertile soils and mineral deposits (including gold). And Russia simply cannot project the power enough to stop USA advances (not mentioning that during most XIX century Russian-USA relations were almost cordial because of their common rivalry with Britain and I don’t see Russians risking one of the most valuable allies for uninhibited land in some godforsaken corner of the world).


However getting enlarged Alaska that contains most OTL British Columbia, Washington and Oregon is much more manageable. There were several factors why Alaska was not properly colonized by Russia namely great distance from Russia proper, the fact that Alaska depended on imported grain and lack of commercial value besides seal fur. While the first factor cannot be removed I believe that the second and third one can be omitted with capable enough leadership. There are several valuable enough resources in the region that can be exploited by Russia and simultaneously not valuable enough to make USA or Britain want to risk war for them(and that actually means that discovery of Alaskan gold before Alaska has at least 50 thousand Russians or assimilated natives should be avoided; if not the colony would be overrun by American gold diggers).



The first such resource is fertile lands around OTL Vancouver. It is unclaimed land even in late XVIII century. Simultaneously Russian Eastern Siberian colonies that provide Russia with fur, silver, gold and other resources and that have by late XVIII century have a population of 100000 men are in desperate need of food supply(imagine that most grain comes from Western Siberia or even European part of Russia). Providing food from the West Cost by sea is much faster and cheaper. So POD in late XVIII century making the head of Russian-American Company influenced by shrewd enough merchant can be enough impetus for Russia to establish an agricultural colony of a several hundred men on the lower Fraser or lower Columbia. A few ships that are able to transport the grain to Okhotsk and Kamchatka is all that is necessary to make the colony profitable. Moreover when not transporting grain these ships can transport fur and seal fur to Japan or China. While the volume of such trade is minimal comparing to land fur trade through Kyakhta it will allow the bosses of Russian-American Company make extra profits. If Russia manages to create several outposts by XIX century and have a few thousand settlers British would have no good place for a foothold beyond Rockies. While certainly British can take anything they want by force the land is not valuable enough (and to damn far) to alienate one of the main allies against Napoleon. So with enough luck(which is however not ASB in my opinion) by the end of Napoleon Wars Russia can have a small but rather firm colony in OTL British Columbia and Washington.



Taking California as an “award” for performance in Napoleon Wars however will make Russian colonies only weaker. California has Spanish-speaking population that while not large itself is certainly bigger than any Russian speaking population that can be in Northern America by XIX century. Moreover while USA can probably give up Oregon with enough effort by Russian diplomacy USA annexing California cannot be avoided especially with inevitable Gold Rush. So taking California is probably too large piece for Russian bite. However if by the time of Californian Gold Rush there would be Russian colony in Oregon the food supply of gold diggers would be very profitable.


Russia is historically very good in the assimilation of natives. The same strategy of promoting orthodoxy and Russian language without any much other abrupt change in local customs that Russia used in Siberia can surely be used in Russian Northern America as well. So by 1820-1830s the amount of population firmly under Russian influence can easily reach several dozen thousands. While Russian-British relations are now on constant verge of war if USA is ally of Russia like in OTL I don’t think Britain will try to take Russian colonies earlier than large European War similar to OTL Crimean War happens.



If Russian colony remains it will definitely have some shipbuilding or at least ship repairing facilities by second quarter of XIX century because the main source of the colony’s profit is shipping grain to the Eastern Siberia(and probably shipping some amounts of fur and seals to China or Japan). So when the population of colony will become big enough to allow the colony be more diversified the second important local resource namely whales can come into the play. While whaling will become less profitable in a few decades it will allow the colony have substantial enough fleet and will attract some settlers.


So by middle XIX century it is possible to have 50000-100000 Russian speaking population in Western Northern America. The natural borders of the colony are Rocky Mountains in the East some natural border in the Northeast – Mackenzie Mountains, Mackenzie River or some other point to the East - and some natural border between OTL Portland and the border of the California State.



If the colony will not be conquered by British in TTL Crimean War(which probably would not be butterflied because before middle XIX century the changes in the region would have very limited influence on the course of history elsewhere). While holding of inevitable British offense is not sure it is entirely possible (the siege of Petropavlovsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Petropavlovsk in OTL was won by Russians in similar conditions).



If Klondike Gold Rush will happen not before the last quarter of XIX century the Russian colony will have enough population to not be overrun by the gold diggers. While the colony will definitely have English speaking minority as well as some other the Russian language will remain the language of majority. By that time butterflies form such enlarged Alaska will definitely change the history of Russia and other world so further predicting without TL is impossible.


While this scenario definitely requires some luck for the colony it is in my opinion not within the realm of plausibility and can be achieved with rather late and minor POD with limited impact on other world before middle XIX century.



Here is a detailed TL of such an Alaska (http://samlib.ru/g/grinshtejn_b_w/ ). The TL is long and rather well written. However it has to flaws – it is abandoned when the TL reached 1860s and it is written in Russian.
 
The kind of crops that could be grown around Vancouver are corn, fruits, vegetables and probably tomatoes. I've seen orchards one time in Keremeos and there are famous peaches in Peachland. (I'm not making this up)

One other thing that could also be cultivated within ATL Russian Alaska is quinoa since they grow rather well in such an extreme condition. In addition, there is also a big potential for alpine ranching where the Russians could produce dairy products from cows that are grazing in the mountains.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
One thing to keep in mind - during the 1854-55 war,

One thing to keep in mind - during the 1854-55 war, the Russians and the Anglo-French (Franco-British) fought each other in the Black Sea littoral; in the Baltic Sea littoral; in the northwest Pacific; and even in the Arctic littoral.

Where was the one place they DIDN'T fight each other - even though it was the one place in the entire world where Russian and Allied (British) territory was actually adjoining each other...

I'll wait.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yep; Russian America and British Columbia/New Caledonia

I'm guessing Russian Alaska.

Yep; Russian America and British Columbia/New Caledonia/Vancouver Island/Queen Charlotte Islands/etc were actually adjacent and not a shot was fired from 1854-55.

Apparently the HBC and Russian America companies agreed it would be bad for business, which sort of raises the question of just how total the war was...

Interesting, isn't it?

Best,
 

iddt3

Donor
However getting enlarged Alaska that contains most OTL British Columbia, Washington and Oregon is much more manageable. There were several factors why Alaska was not properly colonized by Russia namely great distance from Russia proper, the fact that Alaska depended on imported grain and lack of commercial value besides seal fur. While the first factor cannot be removed I believe that the second and third one can be omitted with capable enough leadership. There are several valuable enough resources in the region that can be exploited by Russia and simultaneously not valuable enough to make USA or Britain want to risk war for them(and that actually means that discovery of Alaskan gold before Alaska has at least 50 thousand Russians or assimilated natives should be avoided; if not the colony would be overrun by American gold diggers).

The first such resource is fertile lands around OTL Vancouver. It is unclaimed land even in late XVIII century. Simultaneously Russian Eastern Siberian colonies that provide Russia with fur, silver, gold and other resources and that have by late XVIII century have a population of 100000 men are in desperate need of food supply(imagine that most grain comes from Western Siberia or even European part of Russia). Providing food from the West Cost by sea is much faster and cheaper. So POD in late XVIII century making the head of Russian-American Company influenced by shrewd enough merchant can be enough impetus for Russia to establish an agricultural colony of a several hundred men on the lower Fraser or lower Columbia. A few ships that are able to transport the grain to Okhotsk and Kamchatka is all that is necessary to make the colony profitable. Moreover when not transporting grain these ships can transport fur and seal fur to Japan or China. While the volume of such trade is minimal comparing to land fur trade through Kyakhta it will allow the bosses of Russian-American Company make extra profits. If Russia manages to create several outposts by XIX century and have a few thousand settlers British would have no good place for a foothold beyond Rockies. While certainly British can take anything they want by force the land is not valuable enough (and to damn far) to alienate one of the main allies against Napoleon. So with enough luck(which is however not ASB in my opinion) by the end of Napoleon Wars Russia can have a small but rather firm colony in OTL British Columbia and Washington.

Taking California as an “award” for performance in Napoleon Wars however will make Russian colonies only weaker. California has Spanish-speaking population that while not large itself is certainly bigger than any Russian speaking population that can be in Northern America by XIX century. Moreover while USA can probably give up Oregon with enough effort by Russian diplomacy USA annexing California cannot be avoided especially with inevitable Gold Rush. So taking California is probably too large piece for Russian bite. However if by the time of Californian Gold Rush there would be Russian colony in Oregon the food supply of gold diggers would be very profitable.


If Russian colony remains it will definitely have some shipbuilding or at least ship repairing facilities by second quarter of XIX century because the main source of the colony’s profit is shipping grain to the Eastern Siberia(and probably shipping some amounts of fur and seals to China or Japan). So when the population of colony will become big enough to allow the colony be more diversified the second important local resource namely whales can come into the play. While whaling will become less profitable in a few decades it will allow the colony have substantial enough fleet and will attract some settlers.


So by middle XIX century it is possible to have 50000-100000 Russian speaking population in Western Northern America. The natural borders of the colony are Rocky Mountains in the East some natural border in the Northeast – Mackenzie Mountains, Mackenzie River or some other point to the East - and some natural border between OTL Portland and the border of the California State.



If the colony will not be conquered by British in TTL Crimean War(which probably would not be butterflied because before middle XIX century the changes in the region would have very limited influence on the course of history elsewhere). While holding of inevitable British offense is not sure it is entirely possible (the siege of Petropavlovsk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Petropavlovsk in OTL was won by Russians in similar conditions).



If Klondike Gold Rush will happen not before the last quarter of XIX century the Russian colony will have enough population to not be overrun by the gold diggers. While the colony will definitely have English speaking minority as well as some other the Russian language will remain the language of majority. By that time butterflies form such enlarged Alaska will definitely change the history of Russia and other world so further predicting without TL is impossible.


While this scenario definitely requires some luck for the colony it is in my opinion not within the realm of plausibility and can be achieved with rather late and minor POD with limited impact on other world before middle XIX century.



Here is a detailed TL of such an Alaska (http://samlib.ru/g/grinshtejn_b_w/ ). The TL is long and rather well written. However it has to flaws – it is abandoned when the TL reached 1860s and it is written in Russian.
I don't think you can get that initial surge of Russian farmers. There is simply too much good land (Not as good, but it's a heck of a lot closer) for any Russian peasant to settle in Siberia and Ukraine. There also isn't going to be a market for grain back in Siberia, because it's mostly small farmers who are producing their own grain as well. In addition grain is bulky and not super profitable. You don't get people building up naval infrastructure from scratch and trade fleets to transport it. Grain trade emerges where there is already very heavy and well established trade.

What brought people over was high value trade goods like furs; You need to make the fur trade bigger somehow, or find more valuable goods (but not precious metals, that will lead to the colony being swamped) to draw people willing to make a new life there. Goods that require some minimal processing would be ideal, any random adventurer can trap and cure furs himself. You need a reason for people to start real towns, set down roots, and send for a bride from the old country (and be making enough money to afford to send for said bride).
 
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