Dutch/Portuguese alliance

Alright I know that historically the Dutch and Portuguese were bitter rivals. What I'd like to know is what is needed for them to put aside their differences and what would be the divergent timeline.
 
Just avoid the Iberian Union, Portugal and Netherlands were trading partners before Portugal was inherited by the king of Spain. Portugal produced raw sugar selling it to the dutch that could make the refined sugar, when the Iberian Union happened Portugal was thrown at the middle of the war between Spain and the Dutch Republic, the comercial ties were dropped away and the dutch conquered a lot of portuguese colonies and trade posts, including part of Brazil, Africa, India, Japan, China and the list goes. Withouth this event Portugal could remain as a partner of the Dutch, ally of England and Neutral to the rest of Europe.
 
Prior to the Dutch revolt, the Netherlands had long been an important trading partner for Portugal (and Spain). Dutch and Flemish merchants would acquire spices, sugar, salt and other goods in Lisbon and Setúbal and trade them for grains, and manufactured goods from Northern Europe. This trade originally went to Bruges, then Antwerp and later Amsterdam too.

Once the Dutch revolt began, King Philip II of Spain (I of Portugal), placed various embargoes on trade with the rebellious provinces. One of the most important commodities for the Dutch during this period was salt. Though there were other sources available in Europe, they preferred salt from Setúbal in Portugal. Once this was cutoff, they began sending their merchants as far as present-day Venezuela to obtain salt. This essentially allowed the Dutch merchants to go from trade along the Baltic and Atlantic coast to trans-Atlantic traders (and further afield).

In 1595, Philip II had 400 Dutch ships seized in Spain and Portugal. This was followed by the closing of Iberian ports to Dutch traders in 1596 and 1598. This led to Dutch exploratory missions to the East Indies, and finally the creation of the VOC in 1602. In February 1603, the VOC seized a Portuguese carrack, once they sold its goods, the value of the company doubled. By 1604, the Dutch were able to launch their first attack on Portuguese Malacca (unsuccessful at that time). However, in 1605 they captured Amboyna in the Moluccas, this was followed by the Spanish fort at Ternate in 1610. Most importantly, they were able to establish Batavia as their base in 1619.

However, in April 1621, the embargo was resumed. By that time the Dutch merchants ships had become experienced enough to really attack Portugal's trade in the east. By 1625, they attacked a Spanish-Portuguese fleet in Salvador, Brazil, eventually conquering northeast Brazil. They conquered, Elmina, Luanda, Benguela, Ceylon, Malacca. Peace was only achieved after lengthy negotiations in 1661.

Had the Iberian union not come about, Portugal most certainly would have continued trading with the United Provinces, and probably even sent covert aid to the rebels. Spain was traditionally considered Portugal's only enemy on the continent, and England its only solid ally. So it would be interesting to see how a Dutch trading empire would develop, because in OTL it was developed largely in response to the Spanish embargoes.
 
I'd like to give major props to Viriato and Diego for the revelation the Netherlands and Portugal were, if not exactly allies, at least quite mutually-profitable trading partners. I too wonder if they'd have evolved into a steadfast friendship if not for the Iberian Union.

Do the Portuguese and Dutch (good-naturedly) mock each other the way England and France do to this day due to OTL history?
 
I'd like to give major props to Viriato and Diego for the revelation the Netherlands and Portugal were, if not exactly allies, at least quite mutually-profitable trading partners. I too wonder if they'd have evolved into a steadfast friendship if not for the Iberian Union.

Do the Portuguese and Dutch (good-naturedly) mock each other the way England and France do to this day due to OTL history?

I've never heard of any mocking on the Portuguese part. The period of enmity between the two countries was relatively short-lived and so long ago. For the most part, relations between the two countries were good after 1661.
A large number of Dutch tourists visit Portugal and seem to be well received in the Algarve. For the most part people in Portugal appear to admire the Netherlands, as a small country that has been more economically successful than Portugal, so they hold its achievements as a model. Also, many people in Portugal admire the Netherlands for its tolerance and social model.
 
If their had been a legitimate heir to the Portuguese throne and there had been no union with Spain, it would have been interesting to see the effects on European history.

Firstly, the Portuguese remained largely aloof from European wars before 1580. Portugal's leaders seem to have realized that Portuguese prosperity depended on commerce unhindered by war. In addition Portugal was a relatively small kingdom with a small population. In that sense, Portugal's geographic position was a blessing as it only shared borders with Spain.

A Portuguese king most likely would have preferred to remain neutral and friendly with the England, France and the Dutch Rebels. Without the union, most likely there wouldn't be state-sanctioned piracy by the subjects of those nations against Portuguese ships. Also, attacks on Portuguese colonial fortresses, shipping and trading factories would probably not have occurred. However, the Spanish colonies and shipping would have most likely become even more vulnerable. One has to remember too that a large part of Portugal's fleet was destroyed as part of the Spanish Armada. Without that disaster, the Portuguese have some more fire power.

If the English, Dutch and French establish colonies in the East, they most likely will be in areas not exploited by the Portuguese. I can envision the Dutch actually focussing more attention on North America, since they will gladly buy up Portuguese spices from the East. Portugal in return assumes the burden of building and maintaining forts in the East. However, the Dutch had controlled the fur trade from the Baltic, but by the late 16th century the price of beaver pelts rose drastically due to a dwindling supply caused by over-hunting. In OTL, the established New Netherlands as a source of beaver pelts, and if they focus more energy here, one could see them pushing northwards once war breaks out with the French.

In addition, the Dutch may go after places like the Spanish Antilles. Perhaps Cuba, Puerto Rico or Hispaniola fall into Dutch hands. The English for their part were able to capture Jamaica, so perhaps a Dutch Puerto Rico, Trinidad or Venezuela is possible. This would inevitably lead to the Dutch building forts along the slave coast, but instead of taking Arguim and Elmina, they may just build a post in somewhere like modern Nigeria.

By 1630, the Dutch attacks on Portuguese trade had caused revenues and ships arriving from the east in Lisbon to dwindle to next to nothing. With peace between the two countries, Portugal would have been able to obtain grain, manufactured goods and naval stores the United Provinces, England and France. In return selling spices, salt, ivory, sugar and gold. I can see Portugal becoming somewhat reliant on Dutch financial houses though (not that this is a bad thing). Finally, without so much pressure from the Dutch, the Portuguese most likely would have allocated more resources fighting local enemies in the East such as the Persians.
 
Frankly, I always dispute the idea that a Portugal that stays out of Iberian Union would mean there would be no conflict with Netherlands or even England. The Asian spice trade was too profitable for the Dutch not get involved in it instead of only buying it from Portugal. They had resources and the will to avoid the Portuguese middlemen and get more profits by acquiring the products directly from the sources. Why would they simply accept Portuguese monopoly?
 
I'd like to give major props to Viriato and Diego for the revelation the Netherlands and Portugal were, if not exactly allies, at least quite mutually-profitable trading partners. I too wonder if they'd have evolved into a steadfast friendship if not for the Iberian Union.

Do the Portuguese and Dutch (good-naturedly) mock each other the way England and France do to this day due to OTL history?

I can't speak for the Portugese. But the Dutch do not mock the Portugese in any way or form. We reserve that privilege for the Belgians.

Anyway, I think there would be too many conflicting interests. The Dutch would've made a move on the Asian trade, regardless of an Iberian Union.
 
Frankly, I always dispute the idea that a Portugal that stays out of Iberian Union would mean there would be no conflict with Netherlands or even England. The Asian spice trade was too profitable for the Dutch not get involved in it instead of only buying it from Portugal. They had resources and the will to avoid the Portuguese middlemen and get more profits by acquiring the products directly from the sources. Why would they simply accept Portuguese monopoly?

It is possible, but there are many reasons against this war.

1 - Portugal is a historical ally of England.

2 - The Dutch are already fighting Spain, they could try to grab spanish colonies or seize spanish ships with corsairs. Spain could be a little weaker in this timeline.

3 - Attacking the portuguese will disrupt the trade relations between the two countries. In other words, they will lose at least for a time the access to those spices.

4 - Portugal will be stronger in this timeline and will be concerned only with its own affairs.
 
If their had been a legitimate heir to the Portuguese throne and there had been no union with Spain, it would have been interesting to see the effects on European history.
.

However, in April 1621, the embargo was resumed. By that time the Dutch merchants ships had become experienced enough to really attack Portugal's trade in the east. By 1625, they attacked a Spanish-Portuguese fleet in Salvador, Brazil, eventually conquering northeast Brazil. They conquered, Elmina, Luanda, Benguela, Ceylon, Malacca. Peace was only achieved after lengthy negotiations in 1661. .

Brazil was the opposite, the Spanish (and Portuguese) defeated the Dutch. The Campaign of the Spanish General Don Fadrique Alvarez de Toledo managed to drive the Dutch out into the sea.
As you can read in Wikipedia: In 1625 he was appointed (...) Capitán General of the Army of Brazil. He sailed towards Brazil at the head of a fleet consisting of 34 Spanish ships, 22 Portuguese ships and 12,566 men (three quarters were Spanish and the rest Portuguese). There he reconquered the strategically important city of Salvador da Bahia from the Dutch on April 30, 1625.

And you can read the original document about the Spanish and Portuguese Expedition in Brazil: Relacion de la carta que embio a su Magestad el Senor Don Fadrique de Toledo, General de la Armada y Poderoso Ejercito que fue al Brasil, y del Felicisimo Suceso que Alcanzaron dia de los Gloriosos Apostoles S. Filipe y Santiago que fue a primero de mayo de este ano de 1625.

It is true that in 1630, Dutchmen took Pernamburco... but they lost in 1654... From a military point of view, the Brazil campaign was a Dutch defeat or if you prefer a Spanish-Portuguese victory.
 
Frankly, I always dispute the idea that a Portugal that stays out of Iberian Union would mean there would be no conflict with Netherlands or even England. The Asian spice trade was too profitable for the Dutch not get involved in it instead of only buying it from Portugal. They had resources and the will to avoid the Portuguese middlemen and get more profits by acquiring the products directly from the sources. Why would they simply accept Portuguese monopoly?

A historical study showed that much of Portugal's wealth from the empire of the east prior to 1580 actually flowed northward to the Netherlands (mostly Antwerp). The sale of spices from Lisbon was sent to a Portuguese factory at Antwerp, which acted as a distribution centre for Northern Europe (Germany, the Baltic, Hanseatic League, etc). By 1580, much of this was carried on Flemish ships. In return, loans and insurance were obtained from Flemish financiers along with grains (Lisbon was dependent on imported grains and flour). However, the most important imports were manufactured goods, especially luxury goods such as Flemish tapestries, etc. Finally, the Netherlands acted as a distribution centre for Baltic iron, copper, naval masts, canvas, cordage, armour and gunpowder.

So although Portugal built the fortresses, ships and provided soldiers, sailors and navigators for the empire in Asia, the profits bypassed Lisbon and were going to Flemish, German and Italian bankers. This would eventually benefit the Spanish crown, as it was estimated that Antwerp provided the Spanish crown with seven times as much revenue as all of Spanish America (Urban World History: An Economic and Geographical Perspective by Luc-Normand Tellier).

This commercial relationship led to a cultural exchange between the Netherlands and Portugal. The influence of humanistic thought from the Netherlands began flowing into the Portuguese court beginning in the 1520s. Erasmus for instance had an important influence on Portuguese writers of the day. Flemish art, ceramics, and literature made their way to Portugal as well, for instance the taste blue-white azulejos (tiles) in Portugal originated in the Netherlands during this period, supplanting the earlier designs.

However, with Spanish repression of Protestantism by the 1570s, most of the Protestants from Antwerp went north to Amsterdam. By the time Amsterdam began to eclipse Antwerp, Portugal was under the Spanish Habsburgs, largely excluding it from the trade with the Netherlands, and ending the traditional commercial and cultural exchange between Lisbon and the Netherlands. If Portugal had remained a separate realm, it most likely would have shifted its trading factory to Amsterdam. It would be interesting to see what role Calvinist thought would have had on Portuguese elites.

The Dutch may have still attempted an Asian Empire, along with the English, but it is doubtful their rulers would have encouraged piracy against Portuguese shipping. The Dutch expansion in Asia occurred out of necessity when Philip II cutoff this source of wealth to the Netherlands in an attempt to weaken the United Provinces economically. In OTL, the English and Dutch rulers considered any territory ruled by the Spanish Habsburgs to be free game, so they responded by attacking Portuguese shipping. I imagine Portugal would have been seen as an ally against, and any attempt at expansion in Asia would have been less flagrant.

There were large parts of Asia where Portuguese influence was still tenuous, minimal or non-existent in 1580. If the Dutch still expand in Africa and Asia, they might still build trading factories in places such at the Cape, Java and Sumatra where Portuguese influence was not as strong. However, without a casus belli I just can't imagine them constantly attacking and laying siege to Lisbon and Goa as they did by the 1630s. Also, any expansion in Asia may be directed more towards the Spanish Philippines, Spanish Moluccas, Formosa, etc.

You may also see some interesting new places be colonised by United Provinces and England. In OTL, the English Puritans attempted to establish colonies in St. Augustin in Madagascar in 1645. They may try the Cape (as the Portuguese ignored this region), as the Dutch had not colonised it yet. On, the other hand, Madagascar may become English as a way station to the East. Indochina, Siam and Burma may all become places where the Dutch and English would bypass the Portuguese too.

The Portuguese for there part would have still been unhappy at the loss of the monopoly, but realizing their own weakness, been probably powerless to stop the expansion of these allied or friendly nations. I do see a situation where the Portuguese may still be in control of places like the Malabar Coast, Ceylon, Malacca etc, but the profits flowing largely to Amsterdam and later Bristol, because with peace between the countries and a maintained Anglo-Portuguese alliance, Portugal would have been increasingly dependent on manufactured goods from these countries.
 
Brazil could have been a lot smaller too, restricted to Tordesilhas Line.

I'd say it would go beyond the Tordesilhas Line, but certainly not as much as OTL. I think we'd see expansion in the Amazon region, and what is now the states of Goiás and Mato Grosso. Expansion towards the Rio de la Plata would be stunted, probably going not much beyond the coast.
 
Having not seen any bit about it, so... What would be the consequences for France, then?

I think that relations between Portugal and France could have been through the XVII century the same relations that they had in XVI century.

When Carlos I was king of Spain and Emperor then France and Portugal were fighting overseas but at the same time both nations were trying not to escalate the conflict because the bigger threat at the time was the Habsburg Empire.

Let's remember that just three generations before Carlos I, the territories that he controled were part of at least 5 nations (Aragon+Sicily, Castile+Leon, Burgundy, Austria, Granada).
 
To get a Dutch-Portuguese Alliance pretty much you need to avoid the Iberian Union happening. And the only way to have it avoided is have King Sebastian not go fight in North Africa or somehow survive to produce an Heir. I suspect though King Sebastian had he survived would be the Portuguese King at the start of the Dutch Rebelions. He would likely have supported it because it meant decreasing Spanish power and hopefully gain a new economical partner. Of course now that Portugal is not fighting the Dutch maybe they go after Spanish possessions like the Philippines and/or New Granada?
 
I think that relations between Portugal and France could have been through the XVII century the same relations that they had in XVI century.

When Carlos I was king of Spain and Emperor then France and Portugal were fighting overseas but at the same time both nations were trying not to escalate the conflict because the bigger threat at the time was the Habsburg Empire.

Let's remember that just three generations before Carlos I, the territories that he controled were part of at least 5 nations (Aragon+Sicily, Castile+Leon, Burgundy, Austria, Granada).

Could that means France will ironically mend up relations with somes of it's ennemies in face of this, like Spain yes and/or England? :eek: or at least some conveniance temporary joint ventures...
 
Could that means France will ironically mend up relations with somes of it's ennemies in face of this, like Spain yes and/or England? :eek: or at least some conveniance temporary joint ventures...

Not exactly mend up relations, but maintain Realpolitik at its best... France fought alongside the otomans in the italian wars, alongside the english in the portugueses sucession war...
 
To get a Dutch-Portuguese Alliance pretty much you need to avoid the Iberian Union happening. And the only way to have it avoided is have King Sebastian not go fight in North Africa or somehow survive to produce an Heir.

Exactly.. without Sebastian... the Union was unavoidable

Of course now that Portugal is not fighting the Dutch maybe they go after Spanish possessions like the Philippines and/or New Granada?

I don´t think so... Spaniards and Portuguese beat Dutchmen in Brazil.... and in Philippines. All the Dutch attacks on the Philippines were rejected. Spaniards defeated Dutchmen in Battles of Bolinao, Ticao, Marinduque, Mindoro, Calavite and Corregidor... Althought the Spaniards were outnumbered, they so decisively defeated the enemy, that still in 2014, in the Philippines celebrates that victorious campaign attributed to the intercession of the Virgin Nuestra Senora del Rosario..

So a What if.. where the Dutchmen conquested the Spanish Empire or conquested Cuba, Nueva Granada, Philippines or Nueva Espana is not a realistic What If... The Union was profitable for both kingdoms...
By other side, Portugal would have never joined the Dutch Rebelds against Spain... as didn´t between 1568 to 1580.
 
Top