AHC: Swap India and Japan

-Reverse the history of Japan to be similar to that of India.
- Keep Japan from uniting until the same time as India OTL became a free united nation.
- Japan becomes conquered by a European Power.
- Remove the Shogun.​

-Reverse the history of India to be closer to that of Japan.
-Hold off the Hordes and Islam.
-Make Hinduism more militant.
-Give India a Shogun like system.
-Successfully industrialize.​
 
The trouble is, the Indian subcontinent had so many competing small states and resources that the European powers needed. Japan was not in the same geopolitical situation, and there is little of value there worth the trouble of conquering. I've always seen Japan as more of a 'mini-China' in terms of conquest. I suppose it *could* be done, but it just wouldn't be worth it.

You might be able to open it up to more foreign trade a la China, with treaty ports and spheres of influence, but outright conquest in the divide and conquer nature of India seems unlikely.

Similarly, in pre-colonial India, you've got Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all over the continent. The division is there from the get-go.
 
The trouble is, the Indian subcontinent had so many competing small states and resources that the European powers needed. Japan was not in the same geopolitical situation, and there is little of value there worth the trouble of conquering. I've always seen Japan as more of a 'mini-China' in terms of conquest. I suppose it *could* be done, but it just wouldn't be worth it.

You might be able to open it up to more foreign trade a la China, with treaty ports and spheres of influence, but outright conquest in the divide and conquer nature of India seems unlikely.

Similarly, in pre-colonial India, you've got Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all over the continent. The division is there from the get-go.



I agree entirely, that's why you've got to change history a lot earlier on. Change India so that there is this Shogun like entity, a cultural binding that is similar to "I don't like you and you don't like me, but that big horde will destroy us if we don't combine against it." Japan did this several times is response to the Mongol invasions.

A stronger National Identity makes India a harder nation to divide and conquer. This would also mean stopping the advance of Islam at the Afghan mountains. The consequences of stopping such huge threats to India would probably mean a much more militarily focused society. This in turn makes the prospect of attack India a difficult one. The British has such success because they could exploit the divisions in India, take that away and it becomes much harder.

Japan is less tempting agreed, but it is rich in resources, granted not what the big colonial power needed. The Dutch or the British might consider it. If India was isolationist like Japan as well, then the British would actively seek new markets. Japan is still a tempting target if India is off the table.

As far as turning Japan into a fragmented group of nations, I would suggest a successful Mongol Invasion.
 
I agree entirely, that's why you've got to change history a lot earlier on. Change India so that there is this Shogun like entity, a cultural binding that is similar to "I don't like you and you don't like me, but that big horde will destroy us if we don't combine against it." Japan did this several times is response to the Mongol invasions.

A stronger National Identity makes India a harder nation to divide and conquer. This would also mean stopping the advance of Islam at the Afghan mountains. The consequences of stopping such huge threats to India would probably mean a much more militarily focused society. This in turn makes the prospect of attack India a difficult one. The British has such success because they could exploit the divisions in India, take that away and it becomes much harder.

Japan is less tempting agreed, but it is rich in resources, granted not what the big colonial power needed. The Dutch or the British might consider it. If India was isolationist like Japan as well, then the British would actively seek new markets. Japan is still a tempting target if India is off the table.

As far as turning Japan into a fragmented group of nations, I would suggest a successful Mongol Invasion.

You need to go really, really far back. India is more analogous to Europe in terms of size and the number of different cultures and ethnicities. Meanwhile Japan is a small island group with a single dominant culture.

Really, you'd have to go so far back that terms like Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam would be meaningless.
 
You need to go really, really far back. India is more analogous to Europe in terms of size and the number of different cultures and ethnicities. Meanwhile Japan is a small island group with a single dominant culture.

Really, you'd have to go so far back that terms like Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam would be meaningless.

The Iron Age? That might be a stepping it back too far...What about around the Indo-Aryan Migrations? Nip the caste system in the bud or modify it to include an emperor styled position? Making it a matter of faith might make unifying the region easier.
 
If it's just to make India keep up with Europe or "Meiji"-ing, I'd prefer to consolidate the subcontinent under duality of Mughal North and Vijayanagara/Mysore South and have them not falling apart on themselves until it's time for pulling a Meiji(if it's even necessary for them in the first place). I don't think copy-pasting Japan's trajectory is possible, but India that manages to consolidate and centralize and remaining so will have huge potential that easily dwarfs Japan's.
 
The POD could be the battle of Kalinga. Emperor Ashoka is not moved by witnessing the tragic sights of the battlefield and do not abandon war or convert to Buddhism. He continues with his battles of conquest to annex the four southern kingdoms and the island of Lanka. Ashoka's ablest son Kunal is not blinded as in OTL but ascends the throne after his father. Ashoka is followed by a succession of strong and able emperors for a few centuries, providing a uniform administration through out the Empire.
The decline of the Mauryas is shortly followed by the Guptas who once again unite the empire for a few more centuries. This process is followed by the rise and fall of dynasties like Palas, Cholas etc. If the periods of unity under the empires is much longer than the shorter periods of change of dynasties, the result could be similar to that of China. A strong Empire at the time of the onslaught of Islam also could have maintained the religious unity. The vassal system also should be replaced by the direct rule of the emperor through his loyal governors in provinces.
 
The POD could be the battle of Kalinga. Emperor Ashoka is not moved by witnessing the tragic sights of the battlefield and do not abandon war or convert to Buddhism. He continues with his battles of conquest to annex the four southern kingdoms and the island of Lanka. Ashoka's ablest son Kunal is not blinded as in OTL but ascends the throne after his father. Ashoka is followed by a succession of strong and able emperors for a few centuries, providing a uniform administration through out the Empire.
The decline of the Mauryas is shortly followed by the Guptas who once again unite the empire for a few more centuries. This process is followed by the rise and fall of dynasties like Palas, Cholas etc. If the periods of unity under the empires is much longer than the shorter periods of change of dynasties, the result could be similar to that of China. A strong Empire at the time of the onslaught of Islam also could have maintained the religious unity. The vassal system also should be replaced by the direct rule of the emperor through his loyal governors in provinces.

Yeah, you probably need something like this. Though thus far back the butterflies are huge. You may not get Islam, you certainly won't get modern Hinduism or Buddhism.
 
The Iron Age? That might be a stepping it back too far...What about around the Indo-Aryan Migrations? Nip the caste system in the bud or modify it to include an emperor styled position? Making it a matter of faith might make unifying the region easier.

Even so, I still think you're underestimating the size and diversity of India.

Take Europe as an example- unified faith and unified (scholarly/religious/diplomatic) language for close to a millennium but that did nothing to unify cultures. India is about the same size and is even more culturally diverse (yet more so, if you include the Greater Indosphere i.e. the East Indies and mainland SE Asia).

Any comparison to Japan is way off the ball.
 
There are several difficulties that would prevent Japan from having a similar history to India, and vice versa. The Indian subcontinent is home to surprising amounts of cultural diversity, even more so in ancient times (which is where the POD would have to be). This is because it's large, and has had multiple incursions over the years by various ethnic and religious groups. In comparison, Japan was, for quite a long time, a semi - united feudal state in which internal conflicts were forged more by dynastic disputes rather than cultural differences.

So, in order to make Japan become more like India, your best bet is to butterfly the formation of the Empire entirely and have more successful Ainu. Then, balkanize the Ainu and Early Japanese,and have a Chinese attempt to take Japan (which could only happen if China decides that Japan is a better prize than Southeast Asia, for some reason, and has the military and naval power to enforce a occupation of Japan). China then needs to hold Japan for long enough that it forms decent sized legalist/confucian/buddhist populations in parts of Japan. When the strong, Japan-conquering Chinese dynasty inevitably falls into a civil war or three, have Japan break off into multiple small states divided along religious and cultural lines, possibly with the inclusion of some leftover Chinese aristocrats who either assimilate into local culture or form some sort of melting pot Sino-Japanese culture. Then, have future Chinese/Mongol/Russian invasions to replace the Muslim invasions of modern day Pakistan and the Indus River Valley. As for a colonial power, that is tougher. Japan has little in the way of natural resources to be attractive to European Empire-builders, so the only thing I can think of is if Japan is somehow the agressor, which is unlikely unless it's fragmented states have somehow united into two or three more cohesive entities capable of bothering a colonial power in some fashion. Perhaps an attempt to stop Ainu/Japanese piracy in the China Sea, or simply a futile attempt to grab more asian land as other, stronger powers have claimed more lucrative colonies or the invader already has most of the lucrative colonies and is just greedy for more land, (maybe for a convenient place to station a navy to attack China's coast). Then, have a future independence movement end up in the creation of two countries, an Ainu based one and a Japanese based one, much like Pakistan and India.

As for India, I have no clue how to get it to have dynastic struggles similar to that of Japan, so you'd have to ask someone with more expertise in that area.
 
Yes. There lies the problem. Considering the geographical size, population and the long history spanning millenia, the only country that can be compared to India is China. The challenges for India were similar to those for China, but India didn't have one advantage that China had, the remoteness. China was far away from the other centers of culture and the path of the possible attackers. And it was only Mongols who succeeded in subjugating the Chinese. On the otherhand India had faced a series of attacks starting from that of Alexander down to the Sakas, the Huns, the Arabs, the Turks, the Mughals and European colonial powers.
 
Yes. There lies the problem. Considering the geographical size, population and the long history spanning millenia, the only country that can be compared to India is China. The challenges for India were similar to those for China, but India didn't have one advantage that China had, the remoteness. China was far away from the other centers of culture and the path of the possible attackers. And it was only Mongols who succeeded in subjugating the Chinese. On the otherhand India had faced a series of attacks starting from that of Alexander down to the Sakas, the Huns, the Arabs, the Turks, the Mughals and European colonial powers.

China was also, geographically, more conducive to unification than the Indian subcontinent is.
 
I think its possible for a situation like Japan to develop in one of the smaller Indian polities.

In fact I's say the Maratha Peshwa is a position quite similar to a shogun.
 
The position of Peshwa was similar to that of Shogun in Maratha kingdom. Chchatrapati or the king was only the nominal head while Peshwa, the prime minister held the real power. The post of Peshwa was also hereditary as many other posts. This situation came about because Shahu, the grandson of Shivaji, who was a prisoner of the Mughals for a long period was released by Bahadur Shah, the son of Aurangzeb when he became the Mughal Emperor. When Shahu came back home he was crowned as the King but he was incapable and depended on the Peshwa for carrying out his royal duties. This system became established giving Peshwa the whole power.
A similar system prevailed in Nepal till the second half of the twentieth century. The King was only a figurehead and power was in the hands of Ranas, the hereditary Prime Ministers. King Thribhuvan rebelled against this system in 1954 and he was supported by India. He had to flee the palace with his family leaving only a grandson there. The Rana declared the baby prince Gyanendra as the King, but it was not accepted by others. Finally Rana was forced to yield and resign. Thribhuvan returned triumphantly as the King with all the powers. It was this prince who became the last King of Nepal when his brother Birendra was assassinated with his entire family in 2000. King Thribhuvan introduced certain democratic reforms which were later overturned when his son Mahendra ascended the throne.
 
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