Can Burgoyne Win the Saratoga Campaign Without More Help From Clinton?

Anaxagoras

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It has often been suggested that General Burgoyne could have successfully won the Saratoga Campaign (i.e. capture Albany and secure control of the region from the rebels) only if General Clinton had made a serious effort to attack northwards from New York, rather than simply the weak diversion he conducted IOTL.

Is this so? Or was there any POD that could have allowed Burgoyne to win without receiving more help from New York?
 
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Faeelin

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I've thought about this, and I've wondered if a serious offensive northwards leads to a bigger British defeat.

You're positing Clinton, but he wasn't enough on his own (he was still very far from Saratoga when he turned back). So let's suppose Burgoyne heads north.

Well, in OTL, Burgoyne was able to choose where to land as well as his route through Pennsylvania and along the Chesapeake. In the ATL, he can't really do that; all he can do is head north along the river. Seems like the makings of a series of Bunker Hills, as the British assault a series of American positions.
 

Anaxagoras

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You're positing Clinton, but he wasn't enough on his own (he was still very far from Saratoga when he turned back). So let's suppose Burgoyne heads north.

Well, in OTL, Burgoyne was able to choose where to land as well as his route through Pennsylvania and along the Chesapeake. In the ATL, he can't really do that; all he can do is head north along the river. Seems like the makings of a series of Bunker Hills, as the British assault a series of American positions.

I think you mean Howe, not Burgoyne. But your point is a very good one.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
It is worth remembering that the British lost

It is worth remembering that the British lost at Bennington and Bemis Heights, and - at best - achieved what amounted to draws at Oriskany and Freeman's Farm; the correlation of forces was increasingly in the Americans' favor.

Likewise, whatever Howe and/or Clinton desired to send north from NY, the reality is that Washington's forces were almost entirely unengaged in this period, and so could - presumably - march north as well ... basically, the British were trying to do too much with too few troops.

Best,
 
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