What if Hungarian gets extinct in Hungary

What if the Magyars end up extinct in Hungary making Hungary a Slovak - Croat - Romanian state, what would happen to Hungary.
 
What if the Magyars end up extinct in Hungary making Hungary a Slovak - Croat - Romanian state, what would happen to Hungary.

Then it wouldnt be Hungary. That kind of ethnic change would have to be huge. Huge enough that e.g. Croats might not exist, or exist there, at least. If Germans assimilate Magyars, they can definitely assimilate Czechs, probably Slovaks, likely Croats, etc.
 
They could just not move there to begin with, leaving it German, Bohemian, Avar, Croat, and Vlach.
And also Jassic (descended from Iazyge Sarmatian?), which survived in a few villages IOTL until at least the Mongol invasion... possibly even until the Ottoman conquest.
 
What if the Magyars end up extinct in Hungary making Hungary a Slovak - Croat - Romanian state, what would happen to Hungary.

Why in the world would Hungary continue to exist if it was absolutely filled to the brim with minorities? The ethnically Romanian parts would logically be taken by one of the Danubian Principalities, or a unified Romanian state, the Slovak parts would probably secede and form a Slovakian state, and the Croatians would either secede in a similar fashion to the Slovakians, or form an agreement with the Serbs to ensure the creation of a Yugoslavian federation.
 
If the Hungarian language became extinct during the 19th century with a PoD in 1800, then the Hungarian state would still exist until Austria-Hungary was split after WW1.

Now, if we have the three major groups of Slovaks, Croats and Romanians in this ATL, then if Serbia and Romania grab "their" language areas, the Slovaks would be the only ones left, and rump-Hungary might continue as a Slovak speaking country.

Would Hungary (now as a larger Slovakian state) be able to avoid joining with the Czechs? Czechs and Slovaks are ATL of equal population number, and the Slovaks already have an existing state here.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
The Mongols look the most likely suspects here, they devastated the place, drove the king to flea like a beggar, and wintered their horses there. Had they stayed, Hungarian could have ended up being subsumed into a Tatar identity. Of course, beyond this you are into wild butterflies frolicking in the highways of history, so where it goes from there?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The Mongols look the most likely suspects here, they devastated the place, drove the king to flea like a beggar, and wintered their horses there. Had they stayed, Hungarian could have ended up being subsumed into a Tatar identity. Of course, beyond this you are into wild butterflies frolicking in the highways of history, so where it goes from there?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The Russians didn't get subsumed, despite being under Tatar control for a long while. (Given the size of the empire they controlled, any attempt to actually force their culture to the degree of assimilation on their subject populations would have been disastrous.) What could happen is that when the Mongols are driven out, some other foreign power moves in (possibly German dukes conquer the place in the name of the HRE, framing it as a crusade) and then the Magyars are Germanized over the course of centuries, with a few holdouts remaining no more significant than the Sorbs in modern Germany.

I'm not sure I understand the idea of "Magyars going extinct". How does this happen? Genocide? Gradual assimilation? Or are we supposed to provide the ideas for how it could happen? After the era of nationalism, I doubt you could achieve that without genocide, and I don't think the *Little Entente would go that far.
 
If the Hungarian language became extinct during the 19th century with a PoD in 1800, then the Hungarian state would still exist until Austria-Hungary was split after WW1.

Now, if we have the three major groups of Slovaks, Croats and Romanians in this ATL, then if Serbia and Romania grab "their" language areas, the Slovaks would be the only ones left, and rump-Hungary might continue as a Slovak speaking country.

Would Hungary (now as a larger Slovakian state) be able to avoid joining with the Czechs? Czechs and Slovaks are ATL of equal population number, and the Slovaks already have an existing state here.

How plausible is it to have Hungary mainly Germanised during the 19th and 20th centuries?
 
The Russians didn't get subsumed, despite being under Tatar control for a long while. (Given the size of the empire they controlled, any attempt to actually force their culture to the degree of assimilation on their subject populations would have been disastrous.) What could happen is that when the Mongols are driven out, some other foreign power moves in (possibly German dukes conquer the place in the name of the HRE, framing it as a crusade) and then the Magyars are Germanized over the course of centuries, with a few holdouts remaining no more significant than the Sorbs in modern Germany.

I'm not sure I understand the idea of "Magyars going extinct". How does this happen? Genocide? Gradual assimilation? Or are we supposed to provide the ideas for how it could happen? After the era of nationalism, I doubt you could achieve that without genocide, and I don't think the *Little Entente would go that far.

The Mongols devastate the Ethnically Hungarian Populations - the Croats and Slovaks assimilate the remaining Magyars.
 
I think that if Hungarian got extinct, then it would mainly be replaced by German. Hungarian was more dominant than the surrounding Slavic and Rumanian languages, as it was the language of the elite, thus I think it is unlikely that it would be replaced by Slavic or Rumanian. German would be more likely.
 
If we consider that the original Magyars were a small founder population of steppe nomads who imposed their language on a heavy pre-existing agrarian population, then we use Bulgaria as a model: A Slavic-speaking population (or possibly Romance or Illyrian) bearing the name of a Siberian nomadic horde.
 

Kingpoleon

Banned
832 Latin speakers in newly conquered Constantinople flee it in 1456. The Ottomans chase them to Romania. 246 Greeks with them meet 115 Magyars(with a 4:1 male:female ratio) in a caravan. They agree to lead them to Hungary. While stopped at a small village of less than 80, arguments come up and soon each group has elected their own Council. Meeting together, they agree to install a Mayor Alfred I Magnus. This last name signified royalty, and he was descended from a Latin general. He married a Greek woman named Nikeos(NIK-Ee-Ose) and a Magyar named Ponyar(Pon-Yohr). Together, these three ruled the city. Ponyar soon captured the Transylvanian settlers(the villagers) and killed the men over twelve. Boys twelve and under became slaves and the females became engaged to or married the Magyar men.
King Alfred had a son by Nikeos, who he named Miklos to be more Hungarian. He ordered the construction of a wall around the city, and after a few months, there was thrice as much room as needed inside these walls. A guard, numbering 48, took 12-hour shifts on these walls. The Transylvanians recognized the independence of these Clujans.
Skip ahead 150 years. Cluj now has some 12,000 people under Mayoress Alexandra I Magnus, with a language extremely close to Latin developing. Almost 3,000 Romanians had joined the city in 1600, and now continue to learn Clujan Latin. We now refer to this as Old Greco-Latin due to the Greek influences.
In 1750, Austria recognizes this city as Clujania and grants the 25,000 people all of Transylvania. The many Transylvanians left go to Hungary and begin the Romanian Hungarian language.
In 1812, Napoleon had forced the Austrians to recognize Northern Transylvania, comprised of OTL Hungary w/o Slovakia, as independent. For three years, the Hungarians were ruled by Romanian rulers and began to speak Romanian.
By 1848, the country of Clujania numbers over 100,000 people who speak a Romanian dialect. The country gains control over Hungary in a rebellion, during which it gains a personal union with Austria in exchange for Hungary(again, bar Slovakia) becoming Clujanian territory. By 1900, the Hungarians either spoke German, Neo-Romanian, or had fled the country. In 1919, the Continental War ended and Nicolai I Cartus became ruler of Romania, Moldovia, Transylvania, and OTL Hungary. In 1939, A. Dolf Hiller, a British painter who had been painting the Austrian Alps, fled the country as Germany ordered foreigners out.
 
I had an idea for a similar timeline like this.

In short: Hungary never gets Christianized after the defeat at Lechfeld. Vajk/István cannot defeat Koppány, and pagans remain in control of Pannonia. István flees to the Holy Roman Empire to seek assistance, while pagan Hungarians launch new raids into Christian lands. This prompts heavy handed reaction from the Emperor, where lands in Hungary are allowed to be settled be Germans who take part in subjugating the region. The Pope gives consent, launching a kind of proto-Crusade. German campaigns successfully defeat the Hungarian pagans lead by Koppány, and forcibly Cristianize the land. Basically, a similar thing happens what did to OTL Prussia. Hungary becomes a Germanised kingdom outside the Empire, but closely related to it. István may or may not take the throne as a king or archduke backed by a German speaking elite. In a few hundred years, Hungarians have become one of the many German ethnic groups, much like Old Prussians OTL, with their pagan past only existing in folk stories and perhaps in some power metal lyrics :p

The butterflies are huge of course.
 
The Russians didn't get subsumed, despite being under Tatar control for a long while. (Given the size of the empire they controlled, any attempt to actually force their culture to the degree of assimilation on their subject populations would have been disastrous.) What could happen is that when the Mongols are driven out, some other foreign power moves in (possibly German dukes conquer the place in the name of the HRE, framing it as a crusade) and then the Magyars are Germanized over the course of centuries, with a few holdouts remaining no more significant than the Sorbs in modern Germany.

I'm not sure I understand the idea of "Magyars going extinct". How does this happen? Genocide? Gradual assimilation? Or are we supposed to provide the ideas for how it could happen? After the era of nationalism, I doubt you could achieve that without genocide, and I don't think the *Little Entente would go that far.

Ethnogenesis is a hell of a thing. First off, most modern Hungarians likely have very little in common with Magyars- just as they had little to do with Avars or any of the other groups that dominated the area and then vanished seemingly without a trace. They are a pre-existing substrate population that adopted a new language and a subsequent identity. The model to follow in this case would be Turkey- where most of the people are merely Anatolian Greeks and other Anatolian peoples who adopted Turkish language, customs and identity. That is probably the most interesting parallel to follow- because it is the most recent such event to happen in the region.
 
This is my Idea..
magyarless_world_by_kasumigenx-d8be36w.png
 
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