If the Louisiana purchase never happened

America after declaring independence was as far as land was concerned, nothing but a slim republic sandwiched in-between the Atlantic Ocean and the French holdings that was 2,144,000 square kilometers, or about one third of the continental United States. Land consisting of some of the most fertile fields on the planet, rich in resources, easily navigational with internal waterways, Mississippi being the most famous, yet with only a few towns and outposts in this vast wilderness, a very little French population, and countless Indian tribes.
In the second year of his administration, President Jefferson, was approached by a French noble: Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours. Who in negation with both Napoleon who was in need of funding for his European wars and Jefferson, managed to secure a deal. Jefferson bought “middle America” for around 15 million dollars as of 1803 or around 250 million dollars around 2013.
What would happen if Napoleon still wished to hold onto Frances Western Hemisphere holdings or if policy designed by Jefferson was seen as unconstitutional?
 
Napoleon will certainly lose it one way or another, even if he ends up "winning" the Napoleonic Wars. The United States needed New Orleans, and was more than willing to fight for it. I think you would see an American invasion of the Louisiana Territory between 1804 and 1814, possibly with British assistance.
 
The Americans had been trying to offer ten million for the port of New Orleans, as well as forgiving some debt. The French had been seizing hundreds of American vessels after all, and I do not believe they actually paid for the cargoes of the few that went willingly to France to trade. It may well just be seized. Though there is still of course the thoughts many had of upper Louisiana being a desert, so that might limit how far people want to go, especially as it tended to be people in the South who would push for war in the south and west, though they tended to get funding and soldiers from the North after dragging the country into war.
 
America after declaring independence was as far as land was concerned, nothing but a slim republic sandwiched in-between the Atlantic Ocean and the French holdings that was 2,144,000 square kilometers, or about one third of the continental United States. Land consisting of some of the most fertile fields on the planet, rich in resources, easily navigational with internal waterways, Mississippi being the most famous, yet with only a few towns and outposts in this vast wilderness, a very little French population, and countless Indian tribes.
In the second year of his administration, President Jefferson, was approached by a French noble: Pierre Samuel du Pont de Nemours. Who in negation with both Napoleon who was in need of funding for his European wars and Jefferson, managed to secure a deal. Jefferson bought “middle America” for around 15 million dollars as of 1803 or around 250 million dollars around 2013.
What would happen if Napoleon still wished to hold onto Frances Western Hemisphere holdings or if policy designed by Jefferson was seen as unconstitutional?

Hello, and welcome to AH.com. This is a fascinating scenario that would likely go one of two ways; either the U.S. invades, as CthulhuFhtagn here pointed out, or the territory may simply be bought off later.

There is, however, a third option: if the right cards are played, Louisiana might, one day, possibly become, and remain, an independent nation of it's own. How well would it fare? Well, it depends. But it *is* possible.
 
I have my doubts. Their was little there besides Natives in the north, and some slaves and Spaniards in the south.
 
You could have something similar to Brazil during the Napoleonic wars.
The french royal family manages to escape the revolution and brings all of it's supporters with them to Louisiana, turning it into a independent nation from France.
Since they were overthrown by revolutionaries they are unlikely to sell any piece of their remaining territory to the Americans who also overthrowed their ruler and became independent.
 
I don't think all of the Louisiana would've been taken by an Anglo-American assault, which would've surely happened had Napoleon not sold it. The most I can see is the takeover of New Orleans and its handover to American authorities. Everything else is secondary.
 
You could have something similar to Brazil during the Napoleonic wars.
The french royal family manages to escape the revolution and brings all of it's supporters with them to Louisiana, turning it into a independent nation from France.
Since they were overthrown by revolutionaries they are unlikely to sell any piece of their remaining territory to the Americans who also overthrowed their ruler and became independent.

In this scenario they would be invaded by the Americans anyway.
 
If the king escapes instead of fighting against the revolutionaries, he would bring his troops with him, which would improve their chances since unlike the Americans who were mostly militias, these troops are professionals.
 
If the king escapes instead of fighting against the revolutionaries, he would bring his troops with him, which would improve their chances since unlike the Americans who were mostly militias, these troops are professionals.
Lot of good that did them in France. Besides, his most loyal troops were mercenaries, and some of those fought to the death so were unavailable. Besides, why wouldn't he stay put with relatives, or go to Saint-Domingue?
 
I don't think all of the Louisiana would've been taken by an Anglo-American assault, which would've surely happened had Napoleon not sold it. The most I can see is the takeover of New Orleans and its handover to American authorities. Everything else is secondary.

The exit to the Gulf was the goal but if the US controls New Orleans then the rest of the territory has to follow. First because there no feasible way for France to get there except for through American territory, and second because of population pressures. The Americans are moving west and in huge numbers. Even if another nation controls the land west of the Mississippi, American settlers are going to move in and eventually a situation like Texas will occur.
 
No Louisiana purchase butterflies the War of 1812, instead we would see the US and Britain invade Louisiana with the Britain taking some northern land and the Americans some southern
 
Napoleon will certainly lose it one way or another, even if he ends up "winning" the Napoleonic Wars. The United States needed New Orleans, and was more than willing to fight for it. I think you would see an American invasion of the Louisiana Territory between 1804 and 1814, possibly with British assistance.

Actually, the Brits would take it, imo. They had the force projection capability to take New Orleans, and the US didnt. If it's owned by France, I cant imagine why Britain wouldnt take it. And, unless you butterfly the War of 1812 away, they are most assuredly not going to be handing over to the US.

Now. They might TRADE Louisiana to the US in exchange for... Michigan territory and all land west of Lake Michigan. Say.

PS: what relation is Samuel to Irene, of gunpowder and plastics fame?
 
Actually, the Brits would take it, imo. They had the force projection capability to take New Orleans, and the US didnt. If it's owned by France, I cant imagine why Britain wouldnt take it. And, unless you butterfly the War of 1812 away, they are most assuredly not going to be handing over to the US.

Now. They might TRADE Louisiana to the US in exchange for... Michigan territory and all land west of Lake Michigan. Say.

PS: what relation is Samuel to Irene, of gunpowder and plastics fame?

They may "help" the fledgling USA take southern Louisiana in return for the US forever ceding all claims to said northern territory and entering the war against Napoleon. Minor quibbles over such things as seizing deserting British sailors off American ships could also be negotiated in such a situation
 
They may "help" the fledgling USA take southern Louisiana in return for the US forever ceding all claims to said northern territory and entering the war against Napoleon. Minor quibbles over such things as seizing deserting British sailors off American ships could also be negotiated in such a situation

That might be enough for the Democratic-Republicans. The New Englanders saw hundreds of ships seized by the French navy and privateers while the British were their greatest trade partners by far. Not that the Virginian aristocrats would care to much about it. Getting more territory would tempt them, though,
 
Without the sale of Lousiana to the USA would Napoleon have had enough money for his ill fated Russian campaign?
 
Actually, the Brits would take it, imo. They had the force projection capability to take New Orleans, and the US didnt.

I think either could have taken it. The U.S. can invade by land and will face an outgoing Spanish colonial authority there (France only returned to New Orleans as a formality after the sale was agreed to) who will probably not put up a fierce resistance, knowing Spain isn't going to keep the colony anyway.

PS: what relation is Samuel to Irene, of gunpowder and plastics fame?

Éleuthère Irénée du Pont de Nemours was his son.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
I think either could have taken it. The U.S. can invade by land and will face an outgoing Spanish colonial authority there (France only returned to New Orleans as a formality after the sale was agreed to) who will probably not put up a fierce resistance, knowing Spain isn't going to keep the colony anyway.



Éleuthère Irénée du Pont de Nemours was his son.
This is kind of what I remember, something weird and convoluted, with France leasing territory to Spain. Maybe not that convoluted, but the effects could be.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Without the sale of Lousiana to the USA would Napoleon have had enough money for his ill fated Russian campaign?

The Louisiana Purchase was in 1803. The invasion of Russia wasn't until 1812, nearly a decade later. The two things had nothing to do with one another.
 
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