WI: Edward the Black Prince doesn't marry Joan of Kent?

ByzantineLover · Jul 5, 2015

Just setting up a scenario for Crusader Kings 2 using the Hundred Years War bookmark, and it got me thinking about who Edward the Black Prince might marry if he didn't marry Joan of Kent.

Initially I thought, if Edward III had Henry V levels of success against the Valois, he'd want his son to marry a member of the French royal family, like say Blanche, the posthumous daughter of Charles IV, the last direct Capetian king. Or, if for some reason, Edward needed or desired an alliance with Navarre, the prince would be betrothed to one of Philip III and Joan II's daughters, e.g. Blanche, the second wife of Philip VI Valois. Or even Mary FitzAlan, daughter of the wealthy military leader Richard FitzAlan, 10th Earl of Arundel.

I probably shouldn't be thinking too much outside my area of expertise (Byzantine/Balkans history), but I've become infatuated with the Plantagenets, and I'd just like to get some opinions before I make any concrete decisions for my game.

VVD0D95 · Jul 5, 2015

ByzantineLover said:
Just setting up a scenario for Crusader Kings 2 using the Hundred Years War bookmark, and it got me thinking about who Edward the Black Prince might marry if he didn't marry Joan of Kent.

Initially I thought, if Edward III had Henry V levels of success against the Valois, he'd want his son to marry a member of the French royal family, like say Blanche, the posthumous daughter of Charles IV, the last direct Capetian king. Or, if for some reason, Edward needed or desired an alliance with Navarre, the prince would be betrothed to one of Philip III and Joan II's daughters, e.g. Blanche, the second wife of Philip VI Valois. Or even Mary FitzAlan, daughter of the wealthy military leader Richard FitzAlan, 10th Earl of Arundel.

I probably shouldn't be thinking too much outside my area of expertise (Byzantine/Balkans history), but I've become infatuated with the Plantagenets, and I'd just like to get some opinions before I make any concrete decisions for my game.

An interesting thought, the question that does arise is when and how does Edward III get Henry V levels of success in his campaign, are a lot of his early setbacks avoided and does the siege of Rheims go according to plan?

ByzantineLover · Jul 6, 2015

VVD0D95 said:
An interesting thought, the question that does arise is when and how does Edward III get Henry V levels of success in his campaign, are a lot of his early setbacks avoided and does the siege of Rheims go according to plan?

I'm not too sure about that. Like I said, English history isn't my strong point.

One problem I find with both Blanches are that they, and both Edwards, are descended from Philip III. Blanche, daughter of Charles IV, was Edward III's maternal cousin, and Blanche of Navarre was the daughter of Joan, daughter of Louis X and another of Edward III's cousins.

Another one I had in mind, but wasn't sure if it would work out, would be a daughter of Robert II, the first Stewart king of Scotland.

ByzantineLover · Jul 6, 2015

Well, I eventually decided on Blanche of Navarre. The way I see it, if Edward is more successful against the Valois, Philip might offer one of his daughters as a guarantee for the safety of his lands in Angouleme and Normandy.

I also believe that a union between England and France could only last for one or two generations, so I'm planning for the future Edward IV to pull a Charles V of Spain, leaving part of his 'empire' to his son (France), and the other to one of his brothers (England, Wales and Ireland).

ByzantineLover · Jul 17, 2015

Well, reading about Edward II's potential betrothals, I've made a new decision about who Edward the Black Prince's could be.

I read that, in 1326, Alfonso IV of Portugal offered a marriage between his eldest daughter, Maria, and the future Edward III. Edward did want an alliance with Portugal, but ongoing negotiations for a Castillian bride took precedence, so Maria was put into a loveless match with Alfonso XI of Castille. Alfonso's youngest daughter, Eleanor, was only 2 years older than Prince Edward. IOTL, she was the second wife of Peter IV of Aragon, but she died a year after the wedding they had one or no children.

Having read more into it, I'm starting to think Eleanor of Portugal might be a better match than Blanche of Navarre. Thoughts?

kasumigenx · Jul 17, 2015

The Possible Brides would be

-Blanche of Navarre
-Elisabeth of Poland or Kunigunde of Poland - the rival of Edward III, John II of France married Bonne of Bohemia, Poland and England have a common enemy in Bohemia.
-Blanche of Bourbon
-Eleanor of Portugal
-Blanche of France, OTL Duchess of Orléans

ByzantineLover · Jul 17, 2015

kasumigenx said:
The Possible Brides would be

-Blanche of Navarre
-Elisabeth of Poland or Kunigunde of Poland - the rival of Edward III, John II of France married Bonne of Bohemia, Poland and England have a common enemy in Bohemia.
-Blanche of Bourbon
-Eleanor of Portugal
-Blanche of France, OTL Duchess of Orléans

I had thought about Blanche, Duchess of Orleans, but then I wondered if it would even be allowed, in terms of them being first cousins and all.

As for the Polish princesses, I hadn't known about the rivalry between Poland and Bohemia at the time, but I think Casimir would prefer geographically closer, more useful allies, which he picked IOTL.

VVD0D95 · Jul 17, 2015

ByzantineLover said:
I had thought about Blanche, Duchess of Orleans, but then I wondered if it would even be allowed, in terms of them being first cousins and all.

As for the Polish princesses, I hadn't known about the rivalry between Poland and Bohemia at the time, but I think Casimir would prefer geographically closer, more useful allies, which he picked IOTL.

If one can get Papal approval, it should be no worries

Dathi THorfinnsson · Jul 17, 2015

ByzantineLover said:
I had thought about Blanche, Duchess of Orleans, but then I wondered if it would even be allowed, in terms of them being first cousins and all.

As for the Polish princesses, I hadn't known about the rivalry between Poland and Bohemia at the time, but I think Casimir would prefer geographically closer, more useful allies, which he picked IOTL.

VVD0D95 said:
If one can get Papal approval, it should be no worries

Considering that the Iberians regularly got permission for uncles to marry nieces, it shouldn't be too hard, depending on how much influence your country had in Rome.

Seriously, there's a good reason the Habsburgs ended up the way they did.

VVD0D95 · Jul 17, 2015

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Considering that the Iberians regularly got permission for uncles to marry nieces, it shouldn't be too hard, depending on how much influence your country had in Rome.

Seriously, there's a good reason the Habsburgs ended up the way they did.

Indeed, and yet these people thought they were gods, no wonder they all got screwed eventually.

ByzantineLover · Jul 17, 2015

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Considering that the Iberians regularly got permission for uncles to marry nieces, it shouldn't be too hard, depending on how much influence your country had in Rome.

Seriously, there's a good reason the Habsburgs ended up the way they did.

VVD0D95 said:
Indeed, and yet these people thought they were gods, no wonder they all got screwed eventually.

I know. I'm also trying to think of all the angles. If Edward allies with Portugal, he might lose Castillian support, which he might need if he wants to keep his southern borders safe. IOTL, John of Gaunt married Peter the Cruel's daughter.

(As soon as patch 2.4.2 comes out anyway) I'm thinking about Eleanor of Portugal for Edward the Black Prince and Kunigunde of Poland for a younger brother. Ever since I heard about Louis XV's marriage to Maria Leszczyńska, I've been interested in the potential of a French or English marriage. However, in terms of the Poland-Bohemia rivalry, Bonne of Bohemia was the daughter of the former King of Bohemia and sister of the future Holy Roman Emperor, while I struggle to see what Casimir could see in an alliance with England.

VVD0D95 · Jul 17, 2015

ByzantineLover said:
I know. I'm also trying to think of all the angles. If Edward allies with Portugal, he might lose Castillian support, which he might need if he wants to keep his southern borders safe. IOTL, John of Gaunt married Peter the Cruel's daughter.

(As soon as patch 2.4.2 comes out anyway) I'm thinking about Eleanor of Portugal for Edward the Black Prince and Kunigunde of Poland for a younger brother. Ever since I heard about Louis XV's marriage to Maria Leszczyńska, I've been interested in the potential of a French or English marriage. However, in terms of the Poland-Bohemia rivalry, Bonne of Bohemia was the daughter of the former King of Bohemia and sister of the future Holy Roman Emperor, while I struggle to see what Casimir could see in an alliance with England.

All very interesting. One does wonder what might happen should Portugal and England be tied together.

kasumigenx · Jul 18, 2015

This is my Idea
-Edward the Black Prince - Eleanor of Portugal
-Lionel of Antwerp - Kunigunde of Poland
-John of Gaunt - Giovanna of Naples

ByzantineLover · Dec 11, 2016

I haven't thought about CK2 or Edward the Black Prince in a long time. But I've only just come back to it. I've thought a little bit more about this, and I'm thinking more that Blanche of Navarre would be the best choice if Edward doesn't marry Joan of Kent. Even if King Edward III doesn't have more success in the wars against France, England would still want at least one continental ally across the Pyrenees (two if Joan of England survives and marries Peter of Castile). I've read more about her mother, Joan II of Navarre, and although she initially sided with Philip VI against Edward III, but by 1346 had turned against Philip due to his military failures and made a truce with the Earl of Lancaster. Perhaps that truce could have turned into an alliance with a marriage?