Louis (VIII) of France maring Eleanor of Brittany in 1195

aegis03florin · Feb 27, 2015

Hi Guys,

I want your opinion regarding a possible marriage between the prince Louis of France (future king Louis VIII), son and heir of king Philippe II Auguste and Eleanor of Brittany, the eldest daughter of Geoffrey Plantagenet, sister of Arthur I, duke of Brittany.

This marriage was OTL proposed in 1195 as a peace between Philippe II and Richard I Lionheart, but it failed as the HRE emperor Henry VI opposed the marriage.

What if the two will marring and have children. For ex, at least 2 or 3 living boys and, eventually 2-3 living girls. How the events will play?

Now, there will be a lot of consequences of that:
- If Richard die without issue as per OTL, will Arthur become king of England or John will still grab the crown as per OTL?
- If John become king, what will happens with Arthur? For sure, he will try to get the crown and he will try hard.
- If Arthur dies without heir, what happens next? Will the Duchy of Brittany goes to Eleanor and Louis ?

Thanks!

PS: I know that there will be a lot a butterflies but there are several things more or less prone to happens:
* Richard I dying without living heir: the guy don't like spending to much time with his wife and... he like men even more + his appetite of war in the first line...
* John becoming king: hm... it's hard to not happens.
* Arthur having a short life: while he lives he is a direct thread to John, being the rightful king in the eyes of many of John opponents and, of course, of King Philippe and Prince Louis.

LeopoldPhilippe · Feb 28, 2015

The children of Louis and Eleanor are:
Prince Philippe
Princess Matilda
Princess Constance
Prince Geoffrey
Princess Isabelle

Avrorrange · Feb 28, 2015

If that happens,John is in deep sh^t.John was by all means an usurper of the throne.His rule was tenuous at best in real life and was almost unseated by the said Louis,only his death prevented his line's complete overthrow.If Louis married Eleanor of Brittany then he actually has a genuine claim to the throne of England.

aegis03florin · Mar 2, 2015

LeopoldPhilippe said:
The children of Louis and Eleanor are:
Prince Philippe
Princess Matilda
Princess Constance
Prince Geoffrey
Princess Isabelle

Sort of... But I think the names should be:
Prince Philippe - like his father
Princess Isabelle - like his mother
Princess Matilda or Eleanor

Prince Louis - like him (in OTL, the second son was named Louis = Saint Louis)
Princess Constance/Marie/Alix
Prince Charles - eventually if it will be another boy...

----

Now, how the lands will be divided between the sons:
- Kingdom of France goes to Philippe,
- Duchy of Brittany (suppose that Arthur dies and Louis become Duke jure [FONT=&quot]uxoris[/FONT]) goes to.... has Brittany an established law of succession (primogeniture or gavelkind) ? will it goes to Philippe or to Louis?
- County of Artois goes to...
- Any other lands conquered by Louis from English (we suppose that he will try England as per OTL and Anjou/Maine/Touraine/Aquitaine) how will be split ? I suppose that the girls will receive nothing.... money compensation eventually...

Thanks!

aegis03florin · Mar 2, 2015

darthfanta said:
If that happens,John is in deep sh^t.John was by all means an usurper of the throne.His rule was tenuous at best in real life and was almost unseated by the said Louis,only his death prevented his line's complete overthrow.If Louis married Eleanor of Brittany then he actually has a genuine claim to the throne of England.

True! But if Louis will marry Eleanor, wouldn't force John to be less dumb-ass? To cut a deal with the French, sort of: all continental lands will goes to Louis and he will keep England and Ireland. I suppose King Philippe II Auguste will be delighted.

Will a coalition against Philippe II still happens? John pretty much mounted a huge one OTL (the Emperor, Flandre, Boulogne, Toulouse and many others).

Avrorrange · Mar 2, 2015

aegis03florin said:
True! But if Louis will marry Eleanor, wouldn't force John to be less dumb-ass? To cut a deal with the French, sort of: all continental lands will goes to Louis and he will keep England and Ireland. I suppose King Philippe II Auguste will be delighted.

Will a coalition against Philippe II still happens? John pretty much mounted a huge one OTL (the Emperor, Flandre, Boulogne, Toulouse and many others).

Why would the French accept such a deal?Why would John propose such a thing in the first place?John chose to fight when Arthur allied with the French King to take the entire inheritance instead of cutting some sort of deal.

aegis03florin · Mar 2, 2015

darthfanta said:
Why would the French accept such a deal?Why would John propose such a thing in the first place?John chose to fight when Arthur allied with the French King to take the entire inheritance instead of cutting some sort of deal.

True, but if John loose all his continental possessions and it's in no shape to conquer them back, what he can do about? Anytime, if he piss to much his barons, they can rebel (as OTL) and even request French intervention.

Avrorrange · Mar 2, 2015

aegis03florin said:
True, but if John loose all his continental possessions and it's in no shape to conquer them back, what he can do about? Anytime, if he piss to much his barons, they can rebel (as OTL) and even request French intervention.

He's got nothing to offer the French.He can offer nothing that they already have.

The Professor · Mar 2, 2015

With Louis now Arthur's brother in law he will certainly support him as heir to the French domains - Normandy, Anjou-Maine-Touraine, Britanny - and probably as King of England (though less so, since Philippe is after weakening the Angevins).
If Arthur dies as per OTL then Phillippe will certainly stand against John and promote his son (as jure uxoris). Assuming the barons invite Louis over as OTL then things get more interesting as his could be seen as more valid than John's. How William Marshall stands will affect the outcomes.

a) Henry III is King as OTL but Louis's line gains NAMTB, which then divides up into apanages
b) Louis is King but England and France go to different sons
c) Louis is temporarily King until Henry is of age and forges a coalition that drives him out. He may or may not marry one of Louis's daughters (his second cousin once removed) as part of the peace.

Avrorrange · Mar 2, 2015

The Professor said:
With Louis now Arthur's brother in law he will certainly support him as heir to the French domains - Normandy, Anjou-Maine-Touraine, Britanny - and probably as King of England (though less so, since Philippe is after weakening the Angevins).
If Arthur dies as per OTL then Phillippe will certainly stand against John and promote his son (as jure uxoris). Assuming the barons invite Louis over as OTL then things get more interesting as his could be seen as more valid than John's. How William Marshall stands will affect the outcomes.

a) Henry III is King as OTL but Louis's line gains NAMTB, which then divides up into apanages
b) Louis is King but England and France go to different sons
c) Louis is temporarily King until Henry is of age and forges a coalition that drives him out. He may or may not marry one of Louis's daughters (his second cousin once removed) as part of the peace.

I don't see William Marshal NOT supporting John and his line.Afterall,he supported John against the claims of Arthur in the first place.As it stands however,the support of Philip Augustus and the stronger claim of Eleanor would be crucial.The fact that Eleanor is the rightful heiress through primogeniture probably will persuade Philipe and a lot of nobles to back Louis.Henry and John's claims pales a lot in front of her's.

aegis03florin · Mar 2, 2015

Thanks guys!

So... if Louis conquer England on the right of his wife (having a good claim, maybe he will secure more support form King Philippe Auguste, the French and English nobles and even the Pope), how he split the spoils? Suppose he has 3 living sons: Philippe, Louis and Charles.
- France: goes to his first son Philippe (no argue of that)
- England: goes to the second son Louis ?
- Brittany: to Charles? or to Philippe by primogeniture?
- Anjou, Maine, Touraine : ?
- Aquitaine: ?

How it will be the queen Eleanor? OTL, Blanche of Castile was very supportive to his husband and was regent of France long time with good results.
I suppose that Normandy will be conquer and annexed to Royal Demesne by Philippe as per OTL.

Avrorrange · Mar 2, 2015

Why would he split the spoils?

aegis03florin · Mar 2, 2015

darthfanta said:
Why would he split the spoils?

Because he did it OTL (giving appannages to all his sons).

Ladymadchan · Mar 2, 2015

darthfanta said:
The fact that Eleanor is the rightful heiress through primogeniture probably will persuade Philipe and a lot of nobles to back Louis.Henry and John's claims pales a lot in front of her's.

The part of about the rightful heiress would be interesting to watch. After all we're only a couple of generations away from the anarchy. I don't know how many people will be thrilled about giving the crown of England to her husband.

How it will be the queen Eleanor? OTL, Blanche of Castile was very supportive to his husband and was regent of France long time with good results.

In the OTL, Eleanor was still defiant many years into her captivity. She might be spirited. But who's to say if she'd be a clever as Blanche of Castille.

Also these events might butterfly out Louis VIII's early death in 1226 from dysentary. Perhaps his Queen might not have to step up as a Regent for her son.

kasumigenx · Mar 2, 2015

Perhaps we could have Eleanor of Brittany married to Philippe Auguste instead...

Avrorrange · Mar 2, 2015

Ladymadchan said:
The part of about the rightful heiress would be interesting to watch. After all we're only a couple of generations away from the anarchy. I don't know how many people will be thrilled about giving the crown of England to her husband.

In the OTL, Eleanor was still defiant many years into her captivity. She might be spirited. But who's to say if she'd be a clever as Blanche of Castille.

Also these events might butterfly out Louis VIII's early death in 1226 from dysentary. Perhaps his Queen might not have to step up as a Regent for her son.

There's the fact that a lot of nobles in England still has possessions in France.In real life,the only weakness Louis really has was that he doesn't have a genuine claim or connection to the throne.His only connection to the English throne was through his wife,and she was the maternal niece of John,which doesn't give her any claim to the English throne at all.

There's also the fact that if Philippe actively supports his son,Henry III and John doesn't stand a chance.Philippe's a highly capable commander,not to mention with the full might of France behind him.Marshal will just fail against Philippe Augustus just like he did in Normandy.

If the full force of France and Philippe himself was involved,chances are that England will probably be subjugated so quickly ,that it may be accomplished before John even died.

Ladymadchan · Mar 2, 2015

The betrothal between Eleanor of Brittany and Phillippe Augustus' heir falling apart was probably a huge stroke of luck for the Plantagenet dynasty. Probably one of the big breaks that helped the dynasty hold onto England.

aegis03florin · Mar 3, 2015

Ladymadchan said:
The betrothal between Eleanor of Brittany and Phillippe Augustus' heir falling apart was probably a huge stroke of luck for the Plantagenet dynasty. Probably one of the big breaks that helped the dynasty hold onto England.

So true.... I've never realized that till now, but yes, it was one huge stoke of luck for the Plantagenets...

aegis03florin · Mar 3, 2015

kasumigenx said:
Perhaps we could have Eleanor of Brittany married to Philippe Auguste instead...

I do not think so... Eleanor was born in 1184 and Philippe in 1165==> nearly 20 years difference, and in 1195 Elanor was only 10-11 years old. Also, Philippe matrimonial situation was a mess... He married Ingeborg and repudiate her next day. He obtained the annulment of the marriage by the French bishops and the annulment of the annulment by the Pope... He married Agnes of Merrania and he nearly was excommunicated by Innocent III, with France placed in interdict...
So, nope. His son was the best candidate.

aegis03florin · Mar 4, 2015

Hi!
Thank you all for the input and feedback.

I still need help please concerning the succession and inheritance laws and customs regarding the beginning of the 13 century in France and surrounding areas.

I planing a timeline having as POD the marriage between Louis of France and Eleanor of Brittany. So, in the event of Louis deposing John from both continental territories and England, he become King of France and England, Duke of Brittany (jure uxoris), Aquitaine and eventually Normandy (by conquest and by right of his wife), Count of Anjou, Maine, Touraine and Artois (from his mother).

When he die, he will have:
- 3 living sons - Philippe (let's say 21 years old), Louis (18 years ) and Charles (10 years )
- 3 living daughters - Alienor (15 years), Isabelle (13 years) and Constance. (7 years)

OTL he give much of the lands as appanages to his sons. How he will split it now. Normandy can be attached to Royal Demesne and eventually Artois as well.
Philippe will get the Kingdom of France + .... ?
Louis will get the Kingdom of England + .... ?
Charles will get : .... ?

Will Philippe get the Duchy of Brittany as well by primogeniture or it will goes to Charles? How about the Aquitaine?

Many thanks!