The POD is in the Dark Ages, and it lasts until the present day. The premise is that France plays the role of Germany and Germany plays the role of France, all due to the way the Charlemagne's Empire crumbles. Does this sound interesting to anyone? Here's a sample map from around 1000 AD:
I'm thinking about a possible Dark Age timeline
- Thread starter pa_dutch
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
I would be interested, but how would germany centralize with this sprawling empire looking to involve itself in german business? I actually asked a similar question a little while ago and was informed not so gentily that germany was basically screwed and will have a hard time developing as france did. Good luck though, I hope you can make it work.
I just can't see Germany uniting this early. At this point there's no way they would fall for it, the individual states were too jealous of thier autonomy, and the complicated links joining them would make this impossible, not to mention the economy's of the time. Hell, I don't think France could do it at this time, in a logical world. But hey,on any Sunday......
Disagree. When Charlemagnes empire starts to crumble we don´t have the German individual states yet.
Didn't the OP mean something like France develops like Germany did in OTL and vice-versa? In 1000 France and Germany were rather similar in development weren't they(de-centralized I mean)? He could have it that on his map France and Germany are the same in OTL 1000 but thereafter Germany becomes more centralized while France becomes fragmented. You could have this by having Hughes Capet of France die early in his reign while having Otto III live a lot longer. Just some ideas.
The potential threat of mega-France could force the Germans to centralize in order to survive.
"War is the health of the state."
Well, with France as the center of the Holy Roman Empire, I'd think that the Moors down south become an even bigger source of tension for Christian Europe. If the Normans still come about in the same or a similar way, they're going to be a problem for the HRE's stability as well.
I agree with MP. The More Dark Ages/ Medieval TLs, the better, I say…
That's partially what I'm going for, but the POD is some time after Charlemange's death, with the remnants of his empire being traded back and forth between the various successors. Eventually "France", Italy, and the title of Holy Roman Emperor end up in the hands of the West Franks, while Germany and Lotharingia end up with the East Franks. The 1000 AD map just shows the final establishment of both states following the Dark Ages.
It seems that what had prevented Germany uniting early was title of Emperor and struggle with popes.
Max Sinister
Banned
Yes, do it, why not?
Until Philip Augustus French kings hadn't that much power, and until the interregnum since 1254 the cause of centralization wasn't completely lost in Germany, so things might go well different.
I could imagine France splintering into various lands: Languedoc, Aquitaine, Normandy, Burgundy, not to mention Northern Italy...
Until Philip Augustus French kings hadn't that much power, and until the interregnum since 1254 the cause of centralization wasn't completely lost in Germany, so things might go well different.
I could imagine France splintering into various lands: Languedoc, Aquitaine, Normandy, Burgundy, not to mention Northern Italy...
Max Sinister
Banned
Would that continue until the present - where an American politician calls the Germans "kraut-eating surrender monkeys"? 
Thande
Donor
I like the idea of analogous histories, but there is the problem of them becoming too convergent (as with Turtledove's Southern Victory series as the most obvious example).
A while ago I pondered doing an England/France swap one, but it would probably have had to go in ASBs because it was going to be too convergent.
A while ago I pondered doing an England/France swap one, but it would probably have had to go in ASBs because it was going to be too convergent.