Italian Centered Holy Roman Empire

What if the Holy Roman Empire was formed and Centered around Italy and not Germany? (This might work better in a No Papal States TL)
 
Hermanubis said:
What if the Holy Roman Empire was formed and Centered around Italy and not Germany? (This might work better in a No Papal States TL)

IMO the easiest way to get to it would be to have it derived from Byzantine Italy which at some point decides to go its separate way... possibly an Emperor decides to set up a Western Emperor as the means to control Italy and such, or to prevent a potential civil war between two sons (or whatnot)... then, the dynasty in Constantinople falls, but survives in Italy, without ability to have any foreign conquests, and barely surviving due to potentially hostile population. Thus, they need the Pope to legitimize their occupation, and to not be overthrown. A good time for this would be some time around VIIIth century, maybe involving a breakaway Exarchate along with Byzantine civil war etc.
 
^I was thinking something a little more along the lines of the OTL HRE, formed in the west (By Italians, perhaps Lombard’s, or Ostrogoths) whilst I figure the Byzantines would be in a position more or less like OTL…
 
Hermanubis said:
^I was thinking something a little more along the lines of the OTL HRE, formed in the west (By Italians, perhaps Lombard’s, or Ostrogoths) whilst I figure the Byzantines would be in a position more or less like OTL…

Hmm... the problem with this is that Byzantine influence has to be removed from Italy to a large extent, possibly earlier than in OTL. At this stage it would be possible to have Charlemagne equivalent rising in Italy, instead of in France. Alternatively, if the most successful of Charlemagne's successors is based in Italy, with a decent powerbase there, then Italian HRE could rise, as opposed to German one. The question here would be, though, what would happen to the Papacy? Considering the Papal States would have been formed in VIIIth century, it might take some changes with respect to Pepin the Short - or, the Papal States could have a dual status both as HRE elector state (with the Pope and possibly few cardinals as electors), and a "Holy See" whose independence is somewhat guaranteed by HRE.
 
Do you think it’s too much to ask for the Italian HRE to have its Capital in Rome? Seems Ravenna or Milan would have been a favorite around the time were talking about, but…
 
Hermanubis said:
Do you think it’s too much to ask for the Italian HRE to have its Capital in Rome? Seems Ravenna or Milan would have been a favorite around the time were talking about, but…

The problem with Rome is that it is not in a good defensible position. Of course, it could be changed if Italian HRE has control of the seas - in this case Viking and Arab raids cannot even get close to the shore. It would, however, be possible to have the official capital in Rome, and actual seat of government in one of the other cities.

Alternatively, it might be a bit of a crazy idea, but what about HRE with Pope acting as the Emperor? Such HRE would be, well, "Holy" and definitely "Roman" - and probably more of an Empire than OTL HRE was. It may not be too implausible either... just have a "worldly", aggressive Pope or two, and no Charlemagne (or his equivalent) - but still have the Papal States (so the POD would be in the VIIIth century or later); get a large schism between Rome and Constantinople, and no ability of Byzantium to enforce its will in Italy. Then the Pope could use the infamous "Donation of Constantine" in a different context, taking the mantle of true secular ruler as well as religious leader. How about this?
 
^Hmm, Possibly… thou I think it might be just as likely that some secular ruler might take the Title of Pope (Pontifex Maximus) In the Ultimate Victory of Empire over Church… (The Laws of Celibacy would have to go in either case thou, I think)
 
Hermanubis said:
^Hmm, Possibly… thou I think it might be just as likely that some secular ruler might take the Title of Pope (Pontifex Maximus) In the Ultimate Victory of Empire over Church… (The Laws of Celibacy would have to go in either case thou, I think)

I'd imagine not necessarily, if it is the Church that defeats the Empire and, in the process, becomes it... after all, they didn't go away with the Pope ruling over a secular dominion, not to mention the amount of anti-Popes this would create, and the flocking of Christians to Constantinople.
 
^Yes, but an Empire is quite a bit different then the Papal state, for instance the inconsistency of rulers would be a bigger problem (Unless the Office of the Pope is changed quite a bit…)
 
Hermanubis said:
Do you think it’s too much to ask for the Italian HRE to have its Capital in Rome? Seems Ravenna or Milan would have been a favorite around the time were talking about, but…

Why not Sicily? Under Frederick II the center of gravity of the HRE was in Sicily & Southern Italy. Just have frederick live longer, beat back the Pope, then be suceeded by his son Conrad as an adult rather than a minor.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Why not Sicily? Under Frederick II the center of gravity of the HRE was in Sicily & Southern Italy. Just have frederick live longer, beat back the Pope, then be suceeded by his son Conrad as an adult rather than a minor.
That Might work… thou, We’d need to have the HRE absorb the Papal States somehow, and assert more power over at least Northern Italy…
 
just take time to read my interference timeline and meditate a bit...

ps: first message from my new pc, equipped with a 64-bit AMD chip. Excellent!
 
Hermanubis said:
That Might work… thou, We’d need to have the HRE absorb the Papal States somehow, and assert more power over at least Northern Italy…

The Papal states were part of the Holy Roman Empire, so that's not really a problem. You're never going to have the emperor with total control over everything, and Frederick was one of the most powerful emperors with his sicilian power base.
 
Hmm, interesting… Do you think that its possible that Germany might try to break away from the HRE after the center of it had shifted away to Italy after a few generations?
 
Hermanubis said:
Hmm, interesting… Do you think that its possible that Germany might try to break away from the HRE after the center of it had shifted away to Italy after a few generations?

I was going to ask about that. You might get an Italian HRE if Frederick II or someone like him manages to secure huge Italian domains, and spends so much of his time there that the German princes feel neglected (or oppressed by Italians sent by the Emperor to pester them) and revolt.
 
If the HRE has power throughout Italy, does Italy, including the south, see the same level of fragmentation that occured across OTL Germany, or will fragmentation still only exist in the north?
 

Diamond

Banned
Imajin said:
If the HRE has power throughout Italy, does Italy, including the south, see the same level of fragmentation that occured across OTL Germany, or will fragmentation still only exist in the north?
I'm of the opinion (and I'm probably wrong) that the reason there was such an extreme amount of 'fragmentation' in Germany and to a lesser extent France was because of all the dozens of interacting ethnicities (ie barbarian tribes) mixing with Roman and Gaulish descendents, which created all these semi-independent polities.

In Italy, there was a more ancient common history (the Romans) to bond people together as Italians a little more, as well as less new peoples settling in the peninsula as opposed to north of the Alps.
 
Diamond said:
In Italy, there was a more ancient common history (the Romans) to bond people together as Italians a little more, as well as less new peoples settling in the peninsula as opposed to north of the Alps.
Nice thought, shared by people like Petrarca and Machiavelli, in their days.
OTOH, Giucciardini explained to Machiavelli that "non si puo' far fare agli asini il corso dei cavalli", which, in a freestyle translation means that you cannot teach a donkey to be a horse.
Middle ages Italians in a way were self-defeated by being too rich and civilised. It was never possible to impose a single rule, since all the different cities were just interested in going alone, and counting their ducats.

Maybe the chance came with Frederick 2nd: if he had concentrated more on his Italian possession, and in particular on the Norman kingdom, history might have been different. The titular capital of this "other" HRE would have been Rome for sure (but in that age kings and emperors were required to move from city to city, to keep things under control). The pope would have been subservient to the emperor, at least for a time. Later on, it would be quite possible for an emperor confronted by a difficult pope (or just in need of funds) to create an Imperial Church, Anglican style.
 
What if Charlemagne had just given all of Italy to the Pope like he requested and Charlemagnes successor do a worse job of keeping everything together. An aggressive Pope drives the Byzantines from Naples and declares a Holy Roman Empire with the Pope (Pontifec Maximus could be his title for every day use) as its head.
 
LordKalvan said:
N

Maybe the chance came with Frederick 2nd: if he had concentrated more on his Italian possession, and in particular on the Norman kingdom, history might have been different. The titular capital of this "other" HRE would have been Rome for sure (but in that age kings and emperors were required to move from city to city, to keep things under control). The pope would have been subservient to the emperor, at least for a time. Later on, it would be quite possible for an emperor confronted by a difficult pope (or just in need of funds) to create an Imperial Church, Anglican style.

…That wouldn’t be so good for the Pope, but actually I think it might be easier for a Holy Roman Emperor to just replace an unfriendly Pope with someone else…

Anyway, If the Empire loses Germany, where do you think it could spread to compensate? Southern France? The Crusader States in Greece? Spain? Tunisia, maybe ?


Also, What of Germany? Do you think it could revert to the Kingdom of Germany, or would it split up along the same lines as OTL?
 
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