The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
So @Lascaris has the Catholic Church made any concessions at all when during negotiations with the Lascarid Empire?Even IOTL, they offered promises of help to the ERE instead of just say give us XYZ or we will get armies from the Latin West to invade you. Trying to use force alone against the Lascarid Empire after repeated failures seems a bit uncharacteristic of the Church.Usually they do try the carrot and stick approach. After all the failures thus far, I think they should be negotiating in good faith. Like I don’t think they would think that the kingdom of Cyprus is worthwhile compared to what the Lascarid Empire could offer. If they could get the Lascarid Empire to join the fold, then that’s potentially a powerful vehicle for the Church to regain the Near East.A smarter Church would be trying to turn the energy of the Lascarids towards the Turks instead of wasting effort trying to protect an obviously failed project like the various Latin Crusader states. The Church is usually REALLY GENEROUS towards kings who are willing to fight non-Christians.
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The church for the past several decades has also been to put it bluntly corrupt to a degree it is not even funny and in the pockets of the French crown (and its Anjou branches) which is why relations with Sicily were affected by such doctrinal religious issues like Syracuse refusing to pay tithes to Avignon and its relationship with the Angevin crown. Now that we are gradually entering a... shall we say more interesting period...
Well, if you are looking for Hist. info think that besides from the page on the Hesychasm, also would do well to follow the links and/or to look for Palamas/ Palamism. But, even so, I think that the Wiki page on the Hesychast controversy, it 'd provide both a basic but still good enough, (for anyone without knowledge on the subject or in Theology/Philosophy) and for those interested, it, IMHO, would be a good enough 'kickstart' for further and/or more academically rigorous readings.
From the Hesychast controversy wiki page:
The other great development is the incorporation of Macedonia. In OTL, Manuel Palaiologos briefly recovered east Macedonia but within a decade it was lost to the Ottomans. While we all expect the two rising powers to clash, I doubt Lascarid Macedonia will simply collapse as a house of cards as in OTL. The eastern half of the Lascarid Empire can field armies as big as the christian armies of Kosovo and Nicopolis but under a single command and not composed by heterogeneous forces.
Therefore, I think that Thessaloniki has gotten back its hinterland, for the first time since the Zealots. The city can flourish or at least start properly its recover. And it will be part of a well-run realm. I would guess that it will be much more secure for a caravan carrying serbian silver to reach Thessaloniki, than going to Ragusa through Zeta or Bosnia where princely authority was weak and the feudal lords and chieftains were overmighty. Other than the silver trade, in general the economic life of Macedonia won't be interrupted - at least not as much compared to OTL, and the export of cotton, raw silk, grain and hides can continue.
The sicilian success changes the whole dynamic of the ottoman expansion as well. Tsar Ivan Shishman and Prince Lazar might seek a sicilian alliance to address the ottoman expansion. When Sofia falls, then the road to Nis and the Moravan Serbia is open. I doubt Murad will be able to keep his gazis focused on just one christian opponent, since at this point the ottoman conquest is carried by a "predatory confederation" as Heath Lowry has stated.
Murad's calculations will change as well. If he focuses his efforts against Lascarid Greece, then the Bulgarians and Serbians can assert their independence. Ivan Shishman might get the opportunity to try to recover Sofia or another stronghold south of the Balkan Mountains. If he focuses on the Bulgarians and Serbians, Philanthropenos can see the writing on the wall and would go on the offensive, chipping away strongholds in Thrace. Or he can even establish bases on the asiatic shore - e.g. Cyzicus or Pegae. The political fragmentation of the Christians is much less pronounced. The next two decades will be interesting to say the least.
Therefore, I think that Thessaloniki has gotten back its hinterland, for the first time since the Zealots. The city can flourish or at least start properly its recover. And it will be part of a well-run realm. I would guess that it will be much more secure for a caravan carrying serbian silver to reach Thessaloniki, than going to Ragusa through Zeta or Bosnia where princely authority was weak and the feudal lords and chieftains were overmighty. Other than the silver trade, in general the economic life of Macedonia won't be interrupted - at least not as much compared to OTL, and the export of cotton, raw silk, grain and hides can continue.
The sicilian success changes the whole dynamic of the ottoman expansion as well. Tsar Ivan Shishman and Prince Lazar might seek a sicilian alliance to address the ottoman expansion. When Sofia falls, then the road to Nis and the Moravan Serbia is open. I doubt Murad will be able to keep his gazis focused on just one christian opponent, since at this point the ottoman conquest is carried by a "predatory confederation" as Heath Lowry has stated.
Murad's calculations will change as well. If he focuses his efforts against Lascarid Greece, then the Bulgarians and Serbians can assert their independence. Ivan Shishman might get the opportunity to try to recover Sofia or another stronghold south of the Balkan Mountains. If he focuses on the Bulgarians and Serbians, Philanthropenos can see the writing on the wall and would go on the offensive, chipping away strongholds in Thrace. Or he can even establish bases on the asiatic shore - e.g. Cyzicus or Pegae. The political fragmentation of the Christians is much less pronounced. The next two decades will be interesting to say the least.
That you'd see God's light, the same seen by the Apostles in Mount Tabor by the simple expedient of looking at your belly button and chanting "god save me" for a few hours? Yes I can think that this would cause some controversy.
Well, besides of the similar or bigger numbers. I think that the combined arms way to fight from the Sicilians and the lack of the C.& C issues of the OTL Crusading Armies, would mark the difference against the Ottomans. C&C issues, ones which stemmed from some of the Crusading Aristocrats leaders mindset (same one that caused the French debacles before their English opponents and quite more relevant, the 'Golden Spurs' one, when faced with the Flemish rebels
Argh…..Christians doing what Christians do best —come up with new ways to create controversy in the church……over minor things……./j
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It´s like they took what peter or saul said about not splitting the church up and went wild
Even when there’s no disagreements, people invent disagreements./j
Wiki says the OTL Lucia was born in 1380. Butterfly or wiki error?
Name change due to butterflies? Simonis became Adrienne.
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Well the Italian wiki say otherwise and I'm inclined to believe it more than the English one when it comes down to matters Italian.
Very much so! Especially since the Sicilians field pike-heavy armies, in contrast to knight-heavy armies of the Crusaders. Then it is how the sicilian army was evolved: Alexios Philanthropenos built that army, with the expertise he had from Asia Minor and from fighting turkish cavalry there. Emphasis was given on feigned retreat and ambush and then he developed pike blocks to stop heavy cavalry. This unique combined arms approach is very suitable to defeat early ottoman armies.
Then it is the matter of naval power. It is true that the Byzantines holding Gallipoli after the Savoyard Crusade didn't accomplish anything. However, they held just the city itself, not the whole peninsula and they had no ability whatsoever to use Gallipoli as an offensive base. But if Alexandros Philanthropenos captures the whole peninsula, restores the 6km justinian wall at the neck and uses is as an offensive base? That's a whole different thing.
The existence of the Lascarid Empire produces another butterfly. Since it is doubtful that lascarid Macedonia and Thessaly will simply collapse, then the pattern of the ottoman colonization in the Balkans will be disrupted. At this point in history, the sustained war effort in the Balkans was immensely helped the settlement of militarized nomadic and and semi-nomadic Turkmen/Yoruk tribes in the balkan lowlands. At this point, the colonizing effort was in the thracian plain, but as soon as serbian and byzantine Macedonia and Thessaly collapsed, tribes moved to the lower Strymon valley, lower Axios valley, Pelagonia and Thessaly. These tribes provided most of the light cavalry used by the Ottomans and did most of the raiding as well. The Ottomans didn't regularly move light cavalry from Asia Minor to the Balkans back and forth : usually they operated with local forces.
So, without a lascarid collapse, Murad has two choices: limit the colonizing effort or concentrate the effort even more in Thrace and Bulgaria. If he chooses the latter strategy, there are certain drawbacks. First and foremost, more agrarian peasants are uprooted and replaced by pastoralists. Until the reign of Mehmed II, the tribes didn't pay taxes or at least paid very limited amounts mostly in booty from raids. From the mid-15th century the Ottomans started the process of the gradual agrarianization and sedentarization of the nomads. By then, they had a lot of sipahis, an expanded Janissary Corps and the Tatars to act as light cavalry. So, more concentrated nomads will mean much fewer taxes for the state.
The other issue is that concentration of nomads will spook the local elites. A fair good number of Byzantine, Bulgarian and Serbian elites were incorporated in the ottoman system and islamized in order to keep their privileges and lands. If more unruly nomads are replacing their peasants and take away their land, they have little reason to be loyal to the Ottomans. That applies as well to the still independent Bulgarian lords north of the Balkan Mountains: they have all the more reason to resist.
Lastly, before Timur arrived at the scene, the Ottomans have some pragmatic restriction on how many tribes they can resettle. Timur's campaigns drove a lot of tribes further west, one tribe replacing the other and a lot of Turkmen crossed to Europe. Likewise, a number of Tatars fled from the Pontic Steppe to the Ottoman Balkans after they were defeated by Timur. The Battle of Terek River is still two decades in the future.